ISOC Today

Interested in joining the Internet Society ?

Write to me. You could also learn about the India Chenani Chapter from here

isoc chapters - Upload a Document to Scribd

Read this document on Scribd: isoc chapters

The Fundamental Divide

Not One Less is a brilliant feature film by the Chinese Director Zhang Yimou set in a remote school in rurual china.

The 13 Year old substitute “Teacher” (Wei) of Shuiquan Primary School, where the most precious property is a box of chalk. Wei can’t remember any more than two lines of the only song that she knows and has to get the class to assist her in doing simple math for a bus fare.

Her instructions are clear. Keep the children in the class until a little before sun set, write down one lesson each day on the blackboard and make the children copy. And make sure that no one drops out. And make sure that the box of 30 chalks lasts for the entire month.

Despite Wei’s attempts to resist, one girl is taken away to a Sports School in the city. Days later another boy is missing, she learns that he has gone to the city to work.

Wei decides to go to the city to bring the boy back. The first estimates of the bus fare for the round trip was 9 Yuan which is not there...

A brilliant movie that triggered ideas that there is a fundamental divide that requires greater debate than the debate on digital divide.

..

Has the World Wild Life Fund noticed that Chicken is a species well past "endangered" status ?

Genetic pollution and threat of extinction



Wild Jungle fowl, specifically “Red Junglefowl” in India and South Asia are the ancestor of all Poultry Chickens. These are thought to be facing a serious threat of extinction because of genetic pollution which is occurring at the edge of forests where domesticated free ranging chickens are commonly kept in bordering villages and towns, says AvianWeb ...

more of this at Instablogs


....

Health of the World we live in

Is Chicken and Egg making our children infertile and impotent?

chicken are engineered to be “meat birds” as distinct from “laying birds” Broiler eggs are engineered to be fully / partially infertile. Isn’t there an imminent possibility of the infertility of the meat and eggs affecting the person whose food habits include chicken and eggs?

Is there any research done on this topic?

Or on the effect of fruits, vegetables and pulses produced out of infertile farm seeds?

(In nature a seed sprouts into a plant which produces seeds. Commercial Farming uses seeds from seed companies who produce engineered seeds that sprout into plants that DO NOT produce seeds)

Is there any research done on the effect of eating fruits and vegetables grown from such infertile seeds?

Some resources about Broiler chickens, though there is not much of information about daughter-chickens* whose reproductivity is controlled by genetic engineering. (* - The term daughter-chickens is coined to denote chickens hatched out of eggs laid by the “parent stock chickens) There is not much information about eggs laid by the “laying-birds”. These eggs are usually engineered not to hatch?

http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/garden/156/broilers.html

There is an interesting movie starring Jude Law directed by David Cronnerberg eXistenZ which has a surrealistic theme of a Virtual Game within a Virtual Game. There is a scene in the movie that takes place in a restuaurant where Jude Law is served meat from “excotic new species” - animals or birds? without a head or with multiple heads. Today’s poultry engineers the birds to have stronger legs, fleshy bodies, smaller intestines, controlled reproduction etc., with the idea of making optimizing prime-meat in chicken. Are we far away from engineering chickens without a head and tail because nobody eats them?

Another dimension of this issue is the conditions in a poultry It is typical of at least 70% of all poultry produced to have cruel conditions. Please see the following images:

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken-egg-01.jpg
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken-egg-02.jpg
http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/garden/156/broilers.html

There are a few large poultry farms in countries with stringent regulations where the cage size is more scientific and the space per bird would be larger. These are not what could be taken as representative of the Industry’s practices. A PR executive from a poultry industry might show case the showpiece cages with ergonomic water feed etc... but that wouldn’t be typical.

This is the Question as posed in Linked In

The following has been the Discussion on this Question so far.

The links on the name of the respondents would not work if you have not signed up and logged into Linked In

Eli Roberson Human Genetics Graduate Student at Kennedy Krieger Institute

My initial response would be that I have no reason to believe that the infertility of an animal, fruit, or vegetable would effect the fertility of a person eating it. The only exception to this I would think would be if the items are infertile due to fertility destroying chemical treatment that would affect humans (which the FDA wouldn’t allow if there was any evidence in support of it) or if the food items contained hormones close enough to the human hormone structure that was stable enough to survive stomach acid and intestinal denaturation, cross into the blood stream, and remain stable. Either way, if there was evidence to support this hypothesis then these items wouldn’t be allowed to come to market.

I replied:

Sorry for having taken so long to reply to your response. I have been traveling.

It is perhaps not scientifically established that the infertility of an animal or fruit would affect the fertility. But if you analyse it logically, perhaps in reverse, you would begin to question how an aphrodisiac work. Certain food substances are believed to have aphrodisiac properties, even certain forms of meat, lamb for instance, or parts of lamb, are believed to contribute to enhance the virility of a person. How does it happen ? It happens because the food that one consumes takes effect on a person’s biology. So how could the reverse be untrue ?

He countered by saying:

The logic of your clarification seems circular, like saying all butterflies are moths so all moths are butterflies (not true). Either way, the example of aphrodisiacs of ANY kind is related to sexual desire, not fertility. An increase in sexual desire isn’t an increase in fertility. Even if a person was purposefully, directly exposed to a drug or biological molecule that decreased sexual desire that isn’t the same as decreasing fertility.

I replied:

Hello Roberson

Thank you for your response to my clarification. The difference in our points of view is this: My position: ” I don’t know” Your position “I know, I am certain”

Is it Rene Descartes who said ” Is there anything of which we can be absolutely certain ?”

There is always something that WE DO NOT KNOW. I would copy the response that i sent to Alan just now:

All that is unknown is not to be dismissed as pseudoscience. It is pertinent to recall what Albert Einstein has said:

“We should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.”

Albert Einstein May 1949
Time Magazine’s “Person of the Century”

Thank you for your response.

Richard Krajewski a writer from Greater New York City area said:

Who says you have to eat that stuff? Just eat organic food and stop worrying. A few flower pots on a porch, and you’ll have all the natural peas, tomatoes, and raspberries you could possibly want. Plant a few walnut and apple trees in the backyard (if you have one), and you’ll have to start giving food away, there will be so much.

I replied:

Hello Richard Krajewski,

Thank you for your response. I am sorry to have taken over two weeks to respond, I was traveling.

I agree with you on the merits of organic food.

It is a good solution for me, I can choose to go organic when it comes to choice of my food, but the question is more universal...

Thank you for your response.

Arnab Sengupata Head New Projects at Living Media India Limited said:

I completely agree with Richard’s POV.That’s applicable even if you are a fish eater. Try a small tank :)

Going back to your worries, Eli’s argument is right. We should actually be more bothered by the huge quantities of “poison” or chemicals entering our systems.

We can be fertile & reproduce only when we live long enough I’d guess.

As an afterthought, as long as the organs function properly, we may not require to add to the global population. Resources are already on such a premium!

I know many who enjoy chewing (cooked) chicken heads.

I replied:

Thank you for your response. Richard’s point of view is quite valid in a limited sense. It is valid for those who have the awareness and knowledge about the goodness of alternate foods But it so happens that chicken and egg are consumed in regular, huge quantities in parts of the world. And as you have pointed out, many people enjoy ‘chewing’ chicken...

The question can not possibly be supported with scientific data simply because there has not been any research done so far in that aspect.

Thank you for your response.

Phillip Sukkar Owner of Owner of BC Biogenics Pty Ltd from Sydney Area, Australia said:

Yhe only way that these types of food products would make us infertile or impotent is if they are deficient in the nutrients that help us maintain our fertility and libido or if they were substantially abundant in nutrients (including hormones, etc) that actually reduce fertility and libido.

Furthermore, one would need to consume these products quite regularly and in fairly large amounts for many, many years to result in substantial genetic mutations that would have ongoing affects on both the individual and the individual’s offspring.

I replied:

Broiler chicken and eggs do happen to be deficient in nutrients. Not much research have gone into identifying fertility related nutrients, nor any research done on the levels or or the total absence of such nutrients in meat from chicken or eggs ‘grown and harvested’ out of infertile seeds.

This is [also] equally true [that] the feed formulated and mass produced have excessive harmones.

In many parts of the world chicken and eggs are regularly eaten in large quantities, for a lifetime. My fear is that it doesn’t take years of regular consumption for the person’s fertility / potency to be affected.

parts of [other parts that are made into animal food etc] indirectly gets back into our food chain in some form.

Prabat Sinha CEO of SMG an Event Services Company, India said:

Hi Siva,

I don’t quite know about the infertility issue, but I can send you part of authentic document

National Geography Survey Quote:

“To provide enough beef, chicken, and pork to meet the demand, the livestock industry has moved to factory farming. Producing eight ounces of beef requires 6,600 gallons (25,000 liters) of water; 95 percent of world soybean crops are consumed by farm animals, and 16 percent of the world’s methane, a destructive greenhouse gas, is produced by belching, flatulent livestock. The enormous quantities of manure produced at factory farms becomes toxic waste rather than fertilizer, and runoff threatens nearby streams, bays, and estuaries.

Chickens at a typical farm are kept in cages with about nine square inches (about 60 square centimeters) of space per bird. To force them to lay more eggs, they are often starved. Chickens slaughtered for meat are first fattened up with hormones, sometimes to the point where their legs can no longer support their weight.

Crowded conditions can lead to the rapid spread of disease among the animals. To prevent this, antibiotics are included in their feed. The World Health Organization reports that the widespread use of these drugs in the livestock industry is helping breed antibiotic-resistant microbes, complicating the treatment of disease in both animals and people.”

Cheers

Prabhat

I replied:

Hello Prabhat Sinha,

That is another interesting dimension of the problem. Thanks for bringing that up.

Some one commented on what you had written about the 9 sq inches space and I had added a clarification as part of the question to emphasize that you are right.

[deleted a line] Most of the responses range from ” Eggs are good on protein” and “no scientific evidence” to a psychologically forceful assertion that the question is “helathcare rumour and hearsay”.

I wish there are some authentic responses to the question, like yours.

Thank you for your response.Please also forward this question to those whom you know are experts.

Soledad Quiroz Graduate Student at Heinz School, Carnegie Mellon University said:

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE!!! I have a Ph.D. in biochemistry and I can ASSURE you there is NO CHANCE for this to happen.

The first answer is very good. Plus, if they were to inject something to make the chicken infertile, they would have to inject 100 times more to make it effective in human. If you add that you eat the meat cook, the cooking process gets rid of most of what may have been injected.

If the infertility is made by genetics, there is NO MEANS to affect the human body.

This is the kind of comments that only scares people with no scientific base. I know the details and I am not scared. Knowledge is power, so please, read more (and not just press articles), ask to the people who knows.

Do not grow this questions into fear with no real facts behind it.

Soledad Quiroz

PS: My profile says “graduate student” because now I am getting another degree.

I replied:

Hello Soledad Quiroz,

There is so much that WE DO NOT KNOW. It is not possible to say “IMPOSSIBLE”.

Thank you for your response.

He countered:

Dear Sivasubramanian,

We know much more than you think, that’s the point. If you are really concern about GM food, learn, do not imagine. Ask to people who knows why they are not concern or if they are concern. Ask for FACTS. That is what I ask you, rely on facts and knowledge, not in unfunded fears.

Do you know when you see a movie how many of the things there are just not physically possible? well, you know enough physics to know that, but many others do not know. This is what I feel when somebody says he/she is afraid of genetically modified organisms.

If you wish, I can look for some information for you on the subject or some other people you can talk to.

best regards,

Soledad

Valentin Chirosca Commercial Driver at Panther Expedited Services from Greater Detroit Area said :

Eggs are the best source for proteins for human! And almost complete!

I replied:

Hello Valentin Chirosca,

Eggs used to be the best source for protein, but is the quality of protein the same now ? There is something unknown beyond the apparent here.

Thank you for your response.

Kevin Mullen Application Specialist at Wyeth, Greater Philadelphia Area said:

9 square inches? What kind of chickens do you eat?

I replied:

Hello Kevin Mullen,

Thank you for your response. I answered your response as a clarification to my question and felt that I should send it to you as a private response as well.

It is typical of at least 70% of all poultry produced to have such conditions. Please see the following images:

http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken-egg-01.jpg
http://www.all-creatures.org/anex/chicken-egg-02.jpg
http://greenfield.fortunecity.com/garden/156/broilers.html

There are a few large poultry farms in countries with stringent regulations where the cage size is more scientific and the space per bird would be larger. These are not what could be taken as representative of the Industry’s practices. A PR executive from a poultry industry might show case the showpiece cages with ergonomic water feed etc... but that wouldn’t be typical.

He wrote back to say:

A 9 square inch cage would measure 3 inches by 3 inches, a chicken would not fit in a cage that small.

I clarified:

Hello Kevin Mullen,

One possibility is that this calculation was based on “floor area” occupied. If the cages are multi level cages, the floor area is area alloted to a chicken in a cage level divided by the number of levels, so the 9 square inch indicated possibly as floor area is actually derived from a study.

Alan Burgess Chief Medical Officer at HealthONE from Greater Denver Area said:

Soledad and Eli are correct. I hope scientific claims and opinions on this forum can remain evidence-based. Pseudoscience and health-care nonsense might best be posted elsewhere...Please?

I replied:

Hello Alan Burgess,

Thank you for your response.

All that is unknown is not to be dismissed as pseudoscience. It is pertinent to recall what Albert Einstein has said:

“We should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.”

Albert Einstein May 1949
Time Magazine’s “Person of the Century”

Thank you for your response.

Eric Oermann Medical Student at Georgetown University School of Medicine said

I just want to second Alan. Soledad and Eli are correct, and in response to the OP, it doesn’t even make “logical sense” even “in reverse” - whatever that means. This topic belongs in some sort of “healthcare rumors and hearsay” category, not biotech. Incidentally, and more importantly, why isn’t there a larger number of categories dedicated to healthcare, biotech, and pharma?

I replied:

Hello Eric Oermann,

Thank you for your response. In return, I would merely copy the response that i sent to Alan just now:

All that is unknown is not to be dismissed as pseudoscience. It is pertinent to recall what Albert Einstein has said:

“We should be on our guard not to overestimate science and scientific methods when it is a question of human problems; and we should not assume that experts are the only ones who have a right to express themselves on questions affecting the organization of society.”

Albert Einstein May 1949
Time Magazine’s “Person of the Century”

Thank you for your response.

Gerald Lo Director, Engineering and Technical Services at Nycomed from Greater New York city area said:

Vanakkam, Mr Muthusamy

Well, there is the old Western expression “You are what you eat,” which might possibly explain my fondness for goose as well as jerk chicken...

Some scientists believe that the domestic chicken originated in Southeast Asia, and that the noble progenitor of our modern poultry might be at risk of genetic dilution through miscegenation.

In this regard, perhaps the infertility may be a desirable feature of the genetically modified organism, but I am no scientist.

As regards infertility in human consumers, I suspect there are other environmental factors contributing in greater proportion to our modern pathologies.

Again, I am not a scientist, but observe that there are today more of us living longer than ever before.

I have been consuming chicken since I was little, and have yet to acquire any of the aspects of that noble creature (including its procreative habits).

We of Southern Chinese extraction are inordinately fond of roast capon, which consumption has not seemed to yet have deleteriously affected the health or apparent viability of my three children.

It is my very rudimentary understanding that the human digestion process is capable of assimilating prodigious quantities of nutrients, but also at a macromolecular level rather considerably coarser than at the scale of embedded genetic materials.

I believe one may find online many posts to the effect that genetically modified organisms have not yet received statistically sufficient safety testing to qualify as reliable sources of nutrition, and a few to the effect that a vast industrial conspiracy is afoot.

Poyit vareen, Sir.

Links:

* http://www.avianweb.com/junglefowl.html
* http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/292/23/2868
* http://www.sujitfoundation.com/index.htm

I replied:

Hello Gerald Lo,

Thank you so much for the response and for bringing up the dimension on “Genetic Dilution” which is a core issue that I am concerned about. I followed the links that you have given and posted a blog at http://isolated.instablogs.com/entry/chicken-extintct-by-gentic-pollution/ based on the information that these links led me to.

On your observation that “there might be a vast industry conspiracy afoot, I could see the signs just by looking at some of the responses to this simple Linked In question. The responses ranges from “Eggs are rich in protein” to “FDA wouln’t allow if there was any evidence” to “it doesn’t make logical sense even in reverse’ to “This topic belongs in some sort of ‘healthcare rumors and hearsay’ category..

And, Vanakkam and Poyit Varren - where and when did you learn Tamil? Have you been here ?

Thank you again for your response

...

Uneducated Notions?

I uploaded this Video at the You Tube booth at the OECD Ministerial Meeting on the Future of Internet Economy at Seoul. This video was meant to be uploaded as part of OECD's Future of Internet Economy video files, but I made an error in uploading (which I now think is a fortunate coincidence)

I have noticed that most of those from the Internet Community I have talked to are fiercely resistant to the idea of any suggestion of "essential controls" even as carefully implemented self-regulatory measures decided and implemented by the Internet Community itself, with total independent authority. I am a bit familiar with one side of the coin, (extreme) undetectable abuse of the internet that affects everyone. From a Security point of view, I have felt that it ought to be made difficult for a commercial spammer, a credit card robber or a DDOS attacker to have untraceable freedom.

Technically I thought that the Transition from IPV4 to IPV6 presented a huge opportunity to clean up the internet of extreme abuses, but I am not sure if this can happen without endangering the essential character of the Internet, which ensures access for all.

The other side of the coin is that such openness, even at the cost of allowing malice, is REQUIRED to ensure access to all parts of the world in all countries, especially in countries with oppressive regimes ...An Internet with even basic controls wouldn't be the Internet as it is ????

...