European Union has happened. When the idea was mooted to unite 12 states in Europe it was considered a bit far fetched at least, it happened after 10 or more years of diplomacy and another 10 years later it has stretched as far as the borders of Russia and would sooner or later embrace of all Russia.
United States announced NAFTA, NAFTA exists but beyond a free trade agreement and a free flow, the union is not progressing on the footsteps of Europe, but America seems to have a different model of embracing and expanding.. largely through trade. All other nations reach out to the world much the same way.
American money is not only in America, American businesses are not only in America, but all over the world. In America there isn't merely American money, but money from all over the world. The businesses, big and small are owned not only by Americans. Same can be said of India, Europe, Japan, China and Russia in varying degrees.
These are different tracks on which the world is becoming more and more borderless. There is a central spine that runs through the changing world of today: Internet. Intenet is the EFFECT of the early efforts on globalization and it is equally or more so, Internet is the CAUSE the rapid globalization.
What would the world be like, 30 years from now?
3000 years ago, the world was fiercely territorial. It has been so until 30 years ago.
The world is still territorial. I can take up residence elsewhere in the world if I want to, but there are procedures for approval that I need to go through.
30 years from now, the world would be far more cosmopolitan, at least half the world. More of American money in Japan, more of Japanese money in Europe, more European money in India and more Indian money in Pakistan.
More Indians and more Africans will work for European and American businesses and more Americans will live in Russia, China and India. Cross cultural, cross national residences would be far more accepted and resistence to immigration would become exceptional from being normal.
30 years from now the world would still be very much a world of Americans, Indians, Japanese, European and Tanzanian nationals, but there would be an increasingly visible distinction between nationality and residence.
Nationality or citizenship would have a lot less to do with residence.
What would national governements be doing ? National governments would be governing an international poplulation - not so geographically permananent as the population for the present times. The governement of Canada would govern not only Canadian citizens but rather Canadian residents of multiple nationalities, whose permanence and impermence would depend on how the governement of Canada compares in relation to the Government of France or the Reunion Island, perhaps even in comparison to England. For by then international migration would have become far less complicated and would be just about as difficult as moving from New Jersey to New Orleans.
In the first half of the twentieth centry, Prime Ministers and Presidents were warriors in spirit. Then they became diplomats. Today they are businessmen corporatising entire nations they are heading. The business leadership of a Head of Government is what is crucial for the nation to progress.
30 years from now Heads of Government will be hoteliers in spirit.
...
Wednesday, May 11, 2005
Wednesday, May 04, 2005
America, changing.
I am beginning to respect America more. A lot more. Earlier my respect for America was for the spirit of its receptiveness to the people of all geographic regions in its formative years, its benevolent consitution, the role that it had played in bringing the League of Nations into being, its participation to end Hilter's regime, its Marashal's plan... America had championed the concepts of freedom, equality and justice in all immensity, drew such practical philosophical ideals from various philosphers ancient and modern, made it a comprehensive doucment that it stood for and chamioned for.
Industrial Revultion began in Manchester, but it is America that expanded it. Cars, airtravel and computers have become common for the commonman largely because America had a climate that nurtured large scale production of wonderful goods and services and made it possible for the commonman to own and use them.
This is all that I admired about America and what bothered me was that it became a little self centered along the process - ten, twenty years ago and remained so for a long time. When it talked about Democracy or the absence of it in some other nation, it wasn't really worried about Democracy. When it talked about Free Trade, it meant American business interests. When it talked about Peace elsewhere it meant war, overt or covert with that nation.
And it appeared a little arrogant for a period of ten, twenty years... I have a feeling that this is all changing.
Recent history is dominated by its involvement in Iraq... Critics keep harping on the Intelligence goof up about the Weapons of Mass Destruction intelligence which was the public excuse of the American government to go to war, critics and others criticise the sporadic beatings that the troops take, even after three years of the recent Amercian presence in Iraq, kidnap incidents are blown out of proportion by the media, conspiracy theorits say it is all about oil... No, there is a larger design. It is taking time to take shape but it is happening. Slowly. The world is becoming a better place to live.
In taking such a larger view, I let go a few injustices that have occured. Abu Graf, the Iraq Musuem, the inevitable lies and propaganda that still has to go on, it is all part of the game, but in the end the world would be better balanced with yet another harmonious nation in its roll.
It is not what America did in Iraq that makes America more respectable. Its grand design on Iraq (with larger non-military geographic and economic implications in middle east) is still in progress, lot more work to be done, may be with another TWENTY years of its presece and involvement on a significant level, in some form or another. For now, what America has done and is doing in Iraq is not to be disapproved.
What has impressed me most is that it now appears genuine that America respects President Mushraff as an ally. If this happened ten, twenty years ago, it would have been nothing more than a trick, a deceptive posture, a game on a leader of a nation that the Administration would have discarded once the American purpose was served. It has been happening for the past four or five years, and America appears genuine.
With India, America's participation is amazing. America is embracing India and its embrace feels warm. Ok, we took your advice here and there about economic reforms, but we maintained our caution, we were not like the Latin American countries that rushed to reform and faced consequences. It probably took America a bit of time to understand why India was calculatedly slow in its reform progress, why India isn't all that drastic about the reform process as much as America would like it to be, but in the end it has become evident to America that India is progressing in a manner that the progress is sustained. And America has ceased to play one-up, has even made gestures of commendable humility that clearly characterise today's America as refined, more evloved and somewhat great. One little example is the reception hosted to our Union Minsiter recently at the White house, something that would have been conceptually impossible for America as a protocol exception ten, twenty years ago...
I dont know much about America's positive changes in how it handles diplomatic and trade relations with other nations, but how it handles Britain, India, Pakistan offer a glimpse of signs of a refined govenement...
I am a little reluctant to be a America Centric when I talked about the whole world, but it so happens that America has a considerable impact on the whold world.
America can take a few more simple steps, and a few far reaching steps to make the world a wonderful place.
One or two simple steps for now: Invite Fidel Castro to be the Chief Guest in the Foreign Policy Association Dinner. Offer him a cigar officially imported from Havana. Invite Colonel Muammer Guadaffi to lecture on the History of Libya at the John F Kennedy School of Governement, followed by a Dinner at 1600, Pennsylvania Avenue.....
Industrial Revultion began in Manchester, but it is America that expanded it. Cars, airtravel and computers have become common for the commonman largely because America had a climate that nurtured large scale production of wonderful goods and services and made it possible for the commonman to own and use them.
This is all that I admired about America and what bothered me was that it became a little self centered along the process - ten, twenty years ago and remained so for a long time. When it talked about Democracy or the absence of it in some other nation, it wasn't really worried about Democracy. When it talked about Free Trade, it meant American business interests. When it talked about Peace elsewhere it meant war, overt or covert with that nation.
And it appeared a little arrogant for a period of ten, twenty years... I have a feeling that this is all changing.
Recent history is dominated by its involvement in Iraq... Critics keep harping on the Intelligence goof up about the Weapons of Mass Destruction intelligence which was the public excuse of the American government to go to war, critics and others criticise the sporadic beatings that the troops take, even after three years of the recent Amercian presence in Iraq, kidnap incidents are blown out of proportion by the media, conspiracy theorits say it is all about oil... No, there is a larger design. It is taking time to take shape but it is happening. Slowly. The world is becoming a better place to live.
In taking such a larger view, I let go a few injustices that have occured. Abu Graf, the Iraq Musuem, the inevitable lies and propaganda that still has to go on, it is all part of the game, but in the end the world would be better balanced with yet another harmonious nation in its roll.
It is not what America did in Iraq that makes America more respectable. Its grand design on Iraq (with larger non-military geographic and economic implications in middle east) is still in progress, lot more work to be done, may be with another TWENTY years of its presece and involvement on a significant level, in some form or another. For now, what America has done and is doing in Iraq is not to be disapproved.
What has impressed me most is that it now appears genuine that America respects President Mushraff as an ally. If this happened ten, twenty years ago, it would have been nothing more than a trick, a deceptive posture, a game on a leader of a nation that the Administration would have discarded once the American purpose was served. It has been happening for the past four or five years, and America appears genuine.
With India, America's participation is amazing. America is embracing India and its embrace feels warm. Ok, we took your advice here and there about economic reforms, but we maintained our caution, we were not like the Latin American countries that rushed to reform and faced consequences. It probably took America a bit of time to understand why India was calculatedly slow in its reform progress, why India isn't all that drastic about the reform process as much as America would like it to be, but in the end it has become evident to America that India is progressing in a manner that the progress is sustained. And America has ceased to play one-up, has even made gestures of commendable humility that clearly characterise today's America as refined, more evloved and somewhat great. One little example is the reception hosted to our Union Minsiter recently at the White house, something that would have been conceptually impossible for America as a protocol exception ten, twenty years ago...
I dont know much about America's positive changes in how it handles diplomatic and trade relations with other nations, but how it handles Britain, India, Pakistan offer a glimpse of signs of a refined govenement...
I am a little reluctant to be a America Centric when I talked about the whole world, but it so happens that America has a considerable impact on the whold world.
America can take a few more simple steps, and a few far reaching steps to make the world a wonderful place.
One or two simple steps for now: Invite Fidel Castro to be the Chief Guest in the Foreign Policy Association Dinner. Offer him a cigar officially imported from Havana. Invite Colonel Muammer Guadaffi to lecture on the History of Libya at the John F Kennedy School of Governement, followed by a Dinner at 1600, Pennsylvania Avenue.....
Monday, April 18, 2005
America America
first posted in slate.com on April 8, 2003
Published at blog-city on Monday, 2 June 2003
Subject: How did America became what it isn't?
From: shiva
Date: Apr 8 2003 9:03AM
How did America became what it is not ? When did it begin to lose its goodness?
In 1790 America was a nation of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and a few others. Hundred years later, the nation had become a land that had the diversity of the whole world. Today it is a nation of people of the most diverse cultural origins. It is a microcosm of the culturally diverse Planet Earth.
Politically the nation emerged as a nation of a noble vision, founded on the principles of liberty, equality and justice, constructing its values of nationhood based on the thinking of John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire among other greatest thinkers known.
Earlier in this century it had been a peace loving nation that wouldn't go to war, and after it won a war that it was drawn into, it went on to reconstruct Europe with its Marshall's plan. To make the world a world without war it founded the United Nations.
The nation's political framework, its values such as Democracy, Equality and Social Justice and its overall benevolent spirit had set the nation apart as an example. Its people reflect the spirit of the nation as by and large the people of the United States are magnanimous in spirit. Americans have instituted more foundations than several other nations combined.
With what is happening in the recent past- its domineering attitude towards the rest of the world, the war in Iraq for instance, America appears to have become what it is not.
All that America was remains covered with dust today. Like a dusty mirror which distorts light, the light within America is more than blurred by simple misconceptions in political execution.
What happened?
America has been good, but it became self righteous about its own goodness. Wanted to impose its values such as Democracy in the rest of the world, championed human rights and free trade. Perfect. But somewhere along the process the values that America set out to advocate took a back seat and the power that the rhetoric brought about became the objective. The result was that the nation ended up being one-up over the rest of the world. What remains now is that high handed stance and not the values which America set out to advocate.
Immersed in its belief that its constitution and institutions are superior, America did not review its constitution and institutions periodically. The founding fathers of America wrote the most profound constitution when America became a nation, but periodic review would have made it more balanced.
After all, how old is democracy? ie., the democracy as it is in America? Set aside the ancient Roman senate, Democracy is 225 years old. In the time line of mankind 225 years of experience is not at all long enough. It is too little a time to understand the inherent flaws of the system (I am not a socialist, not a communist, not a monarchist, but someone thinking aloud). Monarchy is the most ancient institution and we don't have much of it left in its active form. My argument is that half the world believed that socialism was noble until it burst. Same may not happen with democracy, but in 225 years it is far from perfected.
The Judiciary, Executive and Congress were constituted as balanced branches, but then with changing times, the balance was hurt by various forces, such as the various lobbies that exercised their influence over the Congress, as also various branches of government such as Pentagon or CIA that emerged stronger than even the Office of the President in some instances. This may not exactly be what is really happening at this point of time, but part of the historical cause of how America became what it is not. What has America done to review its constitution? What has it done to debate on the need to keep the various organs balanced with changing times? What has America done to balance the lobby groups? What has it done to ensure press freedom in its true sense while keeping the press as an institution balanced? What has the nation done to examine if any of the Administrative organs have gained more than due influence over national affairs?
The World War era required America to spend on Defense and the cold war era required America to develop more powerful weapons. The cold war era required America to adopt various strategies, overt and covert and this behavior has left a lasting impression and a pattern in itself which ought to have been erased with the emergence of the new world order.
Today America doesn't seem to care about Democracy. It uses it as a doctrine to be advocated when a certain government does not suit its national interests. Same can be said of its championship of human rights. It funded the Taliban and it patronized Saddam Hussein when it suited America. This means that America could brook any abuse of human rights as long as its own national interests are not hurt. Free Trade? Free Trade became an unspoken slogan to make the rest of the world Buy American.
Somewhere along the time-line America set itself apart from the rest of the world. American life is precious: Come on, LIFE IS PRECIOUS, every life. The national interests of America as a World Power is important: Well, if you wish to be a global power, why place national interests paramount? National interests are fulfilled automatically when that isn't the only item in your agenda. When you are instrumental in making the world at large a better place to live your own national well-being is more than duly served.
What is now happening is that America is trying to assert itself as a world leader without placing the interests of the world paramount. It wants to lead the world while blatantly talking about its national interests. It prides in itself as a Super power. The reality is that it is an illusion that America is a superpower. If it indeed is, it wouldn't shout at the top of the voice that it is a superpower. Real power gives modesty and if America is really powerful it would have made UN look powerful.
American posture has always been domineering. What makes it worse is a basic phenomenon that no one in Diplomacy seems to have noticed: American English isn't the same as the English as the world knows it. Some American expressions convey an entirely wrong meaning. At other times the way the American government speaks is a reflection of its one-up, on-top attitude. And American protocol is so overbearing. Few heads of state and heads of government get past as equals of anyone above the rank of an Under Secretary in US Administration. American protocol is unwittingly designed to make it all burst one fine day.
American English sounds too casual. Everyone in the American Government including the American Press reporters call Iraqi President as Saddam on TV (outside America, it sounds so jarring). Other examples of what irritates some of those from the rest of the world are this: foreign nationals are "aliens" and "sanctions" are imposed on nations, big or small that did not fall in line.
It is with this attitude that America has been condescending towards its real and imagined enemies and in the process it has always underestimated its enemies. It has always thought that it could overthrow its enemies, in Libya, in Cuba and now in Iraq.
Even if America thinks it would overthrow Saddam Hussein, what great harm would befall America if it refers to the Iraqi President as the President of Iraq? Whatever be the degree or reasons for hatred for your enemies, if you make an effort to consider them respectable as strong individuals, then everything changes. Everything changes. It would be basic statesmanship to follow such a protocol. Who writes the President's speeches? The Psychological operations? Does the Psychological Operations know that there are other cultures existing elsewhere in the world that are at least slightly different from American?
Who is advising the American administration to adopt such a posture of a "bully" as America is began to be viewed as?
Why has America been one-up over the UN, which is all world, when it could at least pretend to be a part of it?
A little more modesty would make America far more greater. There are such simple reasons why America has made so many enemies.
How many enemies can America afford?
shiva ( dot ) madras (at) gmail ( dot ) com [ new email ]
Comments at blog-city
comment added :: 12th October 2003, 14:40 GMT+05:30
The Americans did not create the United Nations Organisation. The UNO was an offshoot of the League of Nations which was based in Europe. The Americans "offered" the UNO a base in New York.
slate.com reactions to America, America, some very angry
Subject: we failed to change with our changing people
From: mark14
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:11AM
and stay true to our ideals of equality and fairness. The original immigrants became a entrenched power elite intent on emulating the British colonialists through brainwashing the disenfranchised into supporting acts of agression in the name of freedom but for much darker motives. There is lots of money to be made in this process. Where is Ken Lay? (He's really just a symbol of the pervasive rot). Support the troops and working Americans. Change the leadership that is leading us deeper and deeper into this mess.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: Clearview
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:37AM
What happened is that a weak leader was elected, and due to his deep weakness he is trying to show the opposite. He is surrounded by a bunsh of self beneficiaries.They are telling him exactly what they need to get more profit,but they make him think he is the decision maker, (The poor cowboy). The problem is that no wise man is standing in his face and telling him to stop what he is pushing us to. But for sure WISE MEN still exist and will act soon to save America.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: ksmutzer
Date: Mar 30 2003 2:43AM
You are quick to blame Bush, but there has been a long line of weak leaders that lead up to the current situation. We are a people of a weak mind and of nieviety. Look beyond what the press and the people of this forum tell you and maybe you will see the light. A learned mind comes from research and interest and not slanders from the uneducated. Open your eyes and you shall see the truth.
Subject: Until you learn how to spell 'naiveté,
From: Catnapping4444
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:12AM
you might wanna shy away from comments about others' educations...LOL(pssst: It's not spelled, 'nieviety.')
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:54AM
I would tend to agree with you and I can see that you have a deep respect for the principles that our nation was founded. I was very upset about the fact that we were going to war without un approval until I heard the president's speeches. I chose to believe him and to trust him and I didn't even vote for him. If we do find weapons of mass destruction then I would have to then say that the view of America you expressed is not accurate, that there are enough Americans who DO care about their country to make it worth standing up for. I am going to wait a bit before making my judgement of the Bush administration. After some time more of the truth will come out. We the American people can see how our leaders handle the post-war period... like whether or not we're going to keep our oil companies from getting their greedy little fingers on Iraqi oil, how long will we actually have to occupy Iraq, what type of leadership is going to replace Saddam and will the world economy be opened up to Iraq... etc.
We do have to pay close attention through all of this and always remember that WE have the power to change things so America is what WE make of it.
Subject: the scary thing is you're right
From: Bdbureau1987
Date: Mar 29 2003 11:21AM
You're absolutely right. Our country that was founded on ethics, principles, and fair play. In the last few decades, we have seen every one of those virtues torn to shreds. Watching the presidential elections have been like watching the deevolution of man. We went from Roosevelts (homo-sapiens) to Nixxons (Cro-Magnon) to Reagans (Neanderthal) to Bushes (A Chimpanzee who has been strategically shaven and forced into a suit.) I suspect we'll be seeing inanimate objects in office before this is over. There was a time when we could stand up with pride for what our country did. Now we defend its leaders' thoughtless arrogance with jargon, propaganda, and those little dowel-mounted flags you buy down at K-Mart.
Let's remember that patriotism isn't always a good thing. Nazi Germany had heaping, festering gobs of patriotism.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 7:22PM
I take it you're a democrat? heheh :-)
I am neither. I try to give all candidates equal consideration. The way I see it is both parties have legitimate views. Its the ying and yang of politics that keeps things in check. When clinton was in office for 8 years things were looking great! But during this period the American people began to lose interest once again in foreign affairs and all during this time criminals had been building their power both over-seas and here at home while we just smoked cigars and played the saxophone (and perhaps allowed big business to do unethical things to other countries as well as our own for cryin out loud!!!). Now Americans are once again becoming interested in what is going on in the rest of the world and I think thats a very good thing. This war could turn out to be the first step towards healing our differences with other cultures.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: Bdbureau1987
Date: Mar 29 2003 10:34PM
Close... I'm actually fiscally conservative, but I believe in voting your conscience; not your wallet. So naturally, I tend to vote Democrat. They may be annoyingly naive, but they're not evil.Basically, as I see it, the office of president has devolved since the early 1900's. Clinton was really no exception. Certainly, he was more intelligent than Ronald Reagan or Pappy Bush, but let's face it, there are bedpans out there that are more intelligent than the Reagans and the Bushes. Perhaps he wasn't as hell-bent on destroying the environment and dragging us into pointless wars. But, On an ethical and moral level, Clinton was a festering pile of lying swine fodder. Same as Reagan. Same as Pappy and Baby Bush.
Basically put:
1. We expect our leaders to engage in immoral, unethical, highly corrupt acts.
2. We expect them to be stupid and clumsy enough to get caught in the act.
3. If we ask our leaders to graciously step down after being caught in said acts, we've come to accept that they won't. They'll cling on to office for dear lives, letting the scandal humiliate both themselves, their families, and their country. We expect them to offer pathetic justifications ("I said I did not sleep with THAT woman," "he tried to hurt my daddy,") and play out the media circus until we're so tired of it we're willng to just give up and wait for their term limit to be over with.I think that this lack of accountability is less than pathetic. If a trainee accidentally puts his retainer into a Big Mac, he/she's fired. If a teacher accidentally lost seven children on a field trip, he/she would be fired. If a surgeon accidentally sews their egg sandwich into a patient's gallbladder, he/she would be fired. It's a shame we don't hold those given the *priviledge of leading to the same standard as we would a M'cee-Dee's trainee.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: ksmutzer
Date: Mar 30 2003 2:52AM
Actually, if you look at our history, corruption has infected our politics for longer than just a mere few decades. Time and time again there has been scandal involving political figures. I only wonder if you even voted in the past election, considering that a very small percentage of this nation actually votes. Yet everyone has a complaint about someone in office and didn't use their privilage of voting. And that's what's wrong with our country today. It isn't the people in office, because it's the people that put them there. The real blame lies on the shoulders of the masses that chose not to vote for whatever reason. It all boils down to our system failing to work because the citizens fail to take advantage of the one thing that makes this country great!!! Work on this and you can solve the problem.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:26PM
I've voted almost religiously since I was 18 and yeah you are right, that IS the problem with the US. I hate to say this but I think that anyone who doesn't get off their lazy rear ends to vote is nothing but a free-loader and has no business living here! I've also rarely voted Dem. or Rep.. I feel that there have been some very interesting candidates from other parties that would have made good leaders. So you can see why I am FOR voting. If more people would vote, maybe we can get someone in office who can make a difference. I'm sick of the Dems and the Reps fighting each other all the time and really feel its time for all that to change. But voters keep putting one or the other in office. Why? I realize its taking a big chance letting another party take a crack at leading the country but I'm willing to take that chance I guess so I vote independantly.
Subject: TO SHIVA HOW AMERICA IS AMERICA PART 3
From: americaislost
Date: Mar 30 2003 12:49PM
I would like to answer your assumptions in CAPITALS. First I want to make a statement that you have to keep in mind as you read my response. Every one thinks they are on the "GOOD" side this is because we are tribal in nature and will always look upon our tribe as the "good and pure" THE OTHER TRIBE IS THE BAD AND EVIL"How did America became what it is not ? When did it begin to lose its goodness? In 1790 America was a nation of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and a few others. Hundred years later, the nation had become a land that had the diversity of the whole world. Today it is a nation of people of the most diverse culturual origins.AMERICAN HISTORY DOES NOT SHOW YOU WERE BORN OUT OF GOODNESS AND ACCEPTED DIFFERENT RACES. (WHITE ANGLO-SAXON WERE ACCEPTABLE) YOU CONVENIENTLY FORGOT ALL THE NEGRO SLAVES THAT WERE BRUTALLY TREATED FOR 400 YEARS BY YOUR GOVERNMENT AND SLAVE OWNERS.
EVEN AS LATE AS THE 1940 AND 1950 NEGROES IN THE USA WERE LUNCHED (APPROXIMATELY (6 TO 7,000). WAS THAT JUSTIFIABLE? >>> NEVER!! YET THE GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING..NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS WERE KILLED BY THE MILLIONS' SMALLPOX INFESTED BLANKETS WERE GIVEN TO NORTH AMERICA INDIANS, BY THE EARLY BRITISH AND AMERICAN SETTLERS. Politically the nation emerged as a nation of a noble vision, founded on the principles of liberty, equality and justice, constructing its values of nationhood based on the thinking of John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire among other greatest thinkers known. DURING THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR THOUSANDS OF BRITISH SETTLERS LEFT AMERICA AND MIGRATED TO CANADA TO ESCAPE THE AMERICA REVOLUTION IN ORDER TO REMAIN LOYAL BRITISH. SUBJECTS.
SPANISH SETTLERS IN TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA WERE BUTCHERED AND THEIR LAND WAS CONFISCATED (YOU WERE ON THE WINNING TRIBE OF THESE LITTLE WARS SO OF COURSE YOU WERE THE GOOD GUYS THE OTHERS WERE EVIL AND MEAN AND KILLED THERE OWN PEOPLE SOUNDS FAMILIAR) Earlier in this century it had been a peace loving nation that wouldn't go to war, and after it won a war that it was drawn into, it helped reconstruct Europe with its Marshall's plan. To make the world a world without war it founded the United Nations. IT MAY APPEAR PEACEFUL AND LOVING TO YOU MAYBE BUT TO OTHERS IN THE EARLY CENTURY AMERICA DID MANY WAR CRIMES JUST ASK THE NATIVES INVOLVED WITH THE CONQUEST OF HAWAII.
OR AMERICA FIRST UNJUSTIFIABLE WAR "THE SPANISH AMERICA WAR" AMERICA WANTED TO FLEX ITS MUSCLES AND SO IT DID. THE NATION REJOICED IN VICTORY ONLY FOR AMERICA TO BE HATED ONCE AGAIN WARMONGERS HAD THERE WAY AGAIN..YOUR MILITARY CONTRIBUTION WAS APPRECIATED TO DEFEAT THE NAZI'S BUT DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WAS IN THE WAR SINCE 1939. AMERICA ONLY SUPPLIED MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND ENTERED THE WAR ON DEC 1941. BY THE TIME THE TROOPS WERE IN BATTLE POSITIONS IN WAS LATE 1942. THE MARSHALL PLAN ASIDE YOU WERE ALSO DEALING WITH A SOCIETY THAT WAS AROUND FOR MANY CENTURIES AND HAD SOME COMMONALITY WITH AMERICA SO THIS WAS A PLAN THAT HAD SUCCESS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT FROM THE START UNLIKE THE SITUATION IN IRAN, IRAQ, PALESTINE, VIETNAM ETC.... AMERICAS CONSTANT FEAR OF COMMUNISTS SOCIETIES CREATED A PARANOIA IN AMERICA. SO AMERICA PLANNED THE BAY OF PIGS INVASION ONLY TO FAIL. PRESIDENT KENNEDY DIPLOMATIC HANDLING OF THE CUBAN CRISIS WAS A MASTER PIERCE. UNFORTUNATELY HE LISTENED TO THE MILITARY ONCE AGAIN IN THE CASE OF VIETNAM. WHAT FOLLOWED WAS A DISASTER IN VIETNAM. TO THE REST OF THE WORLD IT LOOKED LIKE AMERICA WAS CREATING CONFLICTS. YOU WERE AND STILL ARE PROPPING UP DICTATORS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS LONG AS AMERICA HAS A PERSONNEL; GAIN, FROM THOSE DICTATORSHIPS, FROM THE SHAH OF IRAN, TO SAUDI KING, TO IRAQI IN ITS WAR WITH IRAN, TO AFGHANISTAN IN ITS WAR WITH RUSSIA, TO CENTRAL AMERICA GUATEMALA, SAN SALVADOR, SOUTH AMERICA SUPPORT FOR COLUMBIA, CHILE. THE VIETNAM WAR WAS NEVER REALLY JUSTIFIABLE NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED. AMERICA ONLY CREATED ANIMOSITY IN ASIA AND SHOWED THE WORLD THAT AMERICA IS A BULLY.. AMERICA HAS SUPPORTED ISRAEL EVEN THOUGH THE UNITED NATIONS HAS MANY RESOLUTIONS AGAINST ISRAEL. I BELIEVE IT'S 65 RESOLUTIONS TO STOP THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA STRIP. FOR YOUR INFORMATION THERE ARE A TOTAL OF 120 ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS YET AMERICA CONTINUES TO GIVE FOREIGN AID (MILITARY EQUIPMENT) TO ISRAEL $10 BILLION PER YEAR. FOR EVERY PALESTINIAN THAT IS KILLED (100 PER MONTH) THERE IS A BULLET THAT SAYS "MADE IN AMERICA" The people of the United States are by nature magnimous. Americans have instituted more foundations than several other nations combined. YES THE AMERICA PUBLIC IS GOOD AS A HOLE AND I HAVE MANY AMERICA FRIENDS, THE REAL QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT AMERICANS ITS ALL ABOUT YOUR FUCKED UP FOREIGN POLICY THAT IS THE PROBLEM THIS IS FROM ANOTHER OF MY POSTS
The Bush administration and the Clinton Administration Did not sign the following and have objected other treaties
1. Mine Ban treaty (1998 Clinton)
2. Comprehensive Ban Treaty in (1999 Clinton)
3. Child Soldiers Treaty (2000)4. Bush has withdrawn from the 1972
4. Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.
5. The US has exempted its self from inspection requirements of The Chemical Weapons Convention.
6. America has rejected the Bio-Weapons Protocol developed in the 1990's to strengthen the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention
7. America has blocked the UN Small Arms Action Plan.
8. America decided to no longer support the clause in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty about Nuclear powers and working towards disarmament.
9. America has refused to sign the Kyoto Protocol on global warming.
The nation's political framework, its values such as Democracy, Equality and Social Justice and its overall benevolent spirit had set the nation apart as an example. YOU VALUE THE FRAMEWORK OF DEMOCRACY BUT YOU MAKE EXCEPTIONS YOU DO NOT APPLY THE RULES FAIRLY AND PROPERLY. RECENT EXAMPLES BIG FUSS OVER THE AMERICAN POW'S YET AMERICA AMERICA CRIES FOWL OF GENEVA CONVENTION YET YOU DO NOT ABIDE BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION EITHER. With what is happening in the recent past- its domineering attitude towards the rest of the world, the war in Iraq for instance, America appears to have become what it is not. All that America was remains covered with dust today. Like a dusty mirror which distorts light, the light within America is more than blurred by simple misconception in political execution.AMERICA WAS ALWAYS DUSTY. AMERICA MAKES A BIG DEAL OF THE 2,800 DEATHS (23 CANADIANS I BELIEVE) SEPT. 11 YET AMERICA FORGETS THAT OVER 12,000 AMERICAS DIE FROM HANDGUNS EVERY YEAR.. THIS IS A FAR CRY FROM CANADA WERE OUR HANDGUN MURDER RATE IS A MIR 166 PEOPLE. SO BEFORE YOU GO OUT AND TRY TO FIX EVERYONE ELSE PROBLEMS… STAY AT HOME AND FIX YOUR OWN PROBLEMS, PROBLEMS OF RACE, (THIS IS STILL AND ISSUE IN AMERICA) POVERTY, EDUCATION AND VIOLENT CRIMES, OVER TWO MILLION PRISONERS IN THE USA JAILS. SO BEFORE YOU TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. ASK THE PEOPLE IN VIETNAM WHAT THEY THINK AMERICA AND WAS AMERICA THE GREAT LIBERATOR, CERTAINLY NOT. AMERICA WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED A LIBERATOR IN IRAQ EITHER. NO ONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS THINKING THAT NOW. IF YOU CONTINUE WITH YOUR CURRENT FOREIGN POLICY THAN "THE AMERICAN DREAM" WILL BECOME THE "AMERICAS NIGHTMARE"
Subject: RE: TO SHIVA HOW AMERICA IS AMERICA PART 3
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:54PM
When you add it all up like that I agree it doesn't look too good. The more I read from people from around the world, the more I understand. I'm doubting that we Americans ever get the whole story from our leaders. I also agree that we have to remove the log from our own eyes before we can help others to see. I hope though that this time you are wrong about American motives because if you're correct then its time to get into politics! I am trusting that the Bush administration has legitimate reasons for invading Iraq. If I find out otherwise I am going to be one pissed off American!As a simple American citizen I am disgusted with the things you pointed out previously. I want nothing more than for all nations to be friends and to help each other so we can live peacefully which I'm sure is true of most common folk around the globe. It angers me to know that there are those who would seek to use the freedom America provides to do evil things.
I do have one question for you though; Have any of the dictators put in place by America ever been accused of inhumanity?
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: LittleAlex
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:17PM
Consolidation of wealth in America has more damage then any terrorist nation could dream. With wealth consolidation comes power consilidation, and the original meaning of democracy becomes diluted. Now government mailny represents different intestes of mainly the wealthy, their is no party that represents the working class. It a government for the wealthy, by the wealthy.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: outdoorsdad
Date: Mar 31 2003 8:21AM
America has not lost its goodness. If it wasn't for America being willing to make a stand and spill the blood of its people the rest of the world would have been pretty much taken over by tyrants by now because frankly, besides England, no one else has the balls to make a stand and do what is right. It is only Americas power that stops that from happening. If America hadn't stood up to Iraq the first time do you think Saddam would have stopped at Kuwait? If it wasn't for the generosity of the American people there would be millions and millions more people living in poverty in this world.......where would everyone else be without the billions in aid we give out every year? You bitch about America......but if it wasn't for America this world would be a pretty dark place.....living under communism and tyrants. Count your blessings.
Subject: RE: America, America (Part II)
From: Shdw98
Date: Mar 29 2003 11:03AM
First of all, The US has NEVER funded the Taliban and we had no way of knowing how wicked Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaida group or for that matter Saddam Hussein's regime would have been back in the 1980's. We weren't mind readers!
Second, I don't subscribe to your view of America where our success or failure is contingent upon your approval. Live Free or Die! Do you know what that means? That means that I would rather take every action neccesary (even if it means my life) to not live under oppression or terrorist threats. Fact: Saddam has scud missles, his surrendering troops have been found with cypro, he has used chemical weapons on his own people and he funds terrorist groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida. He has not once tried to live up to the UN resolutions HE AGREED TO! We Americans are not arrogant but that doesn't mean we have to wallow in self-pity like France (or anti-war protesters around the globe) constantly asking ourselves, "how can we understand them or what have we done?" Screw you! My America was founded on principles that don't change and a constitution that even today, no other comes close. A big part of being American is knowing that you can't stick your head into the sand and ignore the threats and dangers in the world. We learned this after WWII. Liberating Iraq is a secondary benifit. The primary purpose of this war is to end the threat of terrorism and I fully support President Bush. Many anti-war types opposed Reagan for building up nukes in the eightie's too. They labeled him a cowboy and predicted a grim post-nuclear world. Today half of Europe and many other nations are free because of his no-nonsense policy. You'll never give him credit for that just as you will never give Bush or Blair credit for thier efforts on Terrorism but we know the truth.
Subject: RE: America, America (Part II)
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 12:28PM
I would have to agree with Shdw98 on this one. Your concerns are totally legitimate but not everything the government does is bad. As for high handedness, when two people are fighting and things are getting serious, somebody has to break it up! To do so though takes courage. We DO need to be aware of what our elected official's true motivations are but at the same time we also need to pay attention to whats going on in the world or we're liable to wake up one morning under a full scale attack, a surprise suicide attack. There is enough unjustified hatred towards America out there right now that we had better show vigilance or we are doomed. There will always be hatred towards whatever nation has the most power. I think that America is generally pretty responsible with her power but only because its citizens share in that responsibility. So, keep up the good work but please don't give up on the US! Its worth fighting for. Mar 29
Subject: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: americaislost
Date: Mar 29 2003 4:35PM
wrong. The rest of the world does care about your power they are anti-American because you are abusing your power.....People that attacked you on Sept 11 attacked for a reason and the reason is your arrogance and double standard. Any dictator who is pro American is OK with Bush and the Cronies.. . But any other dictator or government that has a different view America threatens including Canada for not supporting your unjustifiable war..
So guys live free and die in America leave the rest of the world alone..Former CIA analyst: US 'conned into war'Robert Baer charges that the American-led invasion is a 'dire mistake'BEIRUT: Middle East expert and former Central Intelligence Agency officer Robert Baer has charged that the American-led war in Iraq is a dire mistake based on false assumptions and faulty information, but that President George W. Bush cannot stop now and leave Saddam Hussein in power after the long emotional and political buildup to the war.
"The American people, Congress, government and president were conned into this war, in the full sense of the word, by neo-conservatives and hawks in Washington who sold a false bill of goods. The president was lied to and given erroneous information that was filtered through Iraqi exiles who had not lived in Iraq for 20 or 30 years and had no clear idea of realities inside Iraq. The exiles had no intention of fighting themselves, but wanted the US to fight for them," he told The Daily Star Thursday in an interview.
The 21-year CIA veteran quit the agency in good standing about five years ago, and was given the Career Intelligence Medal for his service. He called this "almost an accidental war," against the backdrop of an American population that did not bother with foreign affairs but suddenly suffered the wrenching emotional experience of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
"There was already in place among some circles in Washington an old plan to attack Iraq. After Sept. 11, 2001 it was sold to the president, who was told that this would be a quick, decisive, easy, almost bloodless operation, at little expense and with no resistance by Iraqis, with Saddam Hussein gone at a flash of the muzzle. But it has not worked out that way.
Determined Iraqis who stalled mechanized divisions in southern Iraq are not just pockets of resistance. In its first week the war did not go as planned."Baer, who has published a book on his years in the CIA and is now publishing a second book about Saudi Arabia, said the worst scenario for the US is to surround and lay siege to Baghdad and its 5 million people.
He fears that this will increase the bitterness felt against the US by Arabs and Muslims, who increasingly see Americans as hostile to them. He is also concerned "that young Americans now are fighting and dying in Iraq based on faulty analyses from questionable sources," but he cannot see Bush stopping the war now.
"President Bush spent nine months working the American population into a frenzy of fear and anger about Saddam Hussein, and he cannot now tell them that it was not so serious after all, that he has to stop the war and leave Saddam in power."
The best way to minimize long-term damage to the US' standing in this region is for Washington "to make a brisk, clean transition to Iraqi or Iraqi-UN rule after the war ends, offer substantial assistance for reconstruction, leave the Iraqis alone , and turn America's attention quickly to achieving a fair resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict." R.K.
Subject: RE: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 6:30PM
I sure hope that you are wrong! I find it hard to believe that US intelligence knows only faulty information and they sure aren't going to share anything important with the media until this is all over if even then. The only way this could be true is if Bush were an amature, a phoney, or completely mad. He grew up with a man Saddam tried to have asassinated. That would motivate me to make sure I had accurate information about him. I agree 100% with what you said here though:
" The best way to minimize long-term damage to the US' standing in this region is for Washington "to make a brisk, clean transition to Iraqi or Iraqi-UN rule after the war ends, offer substantial assistance for reconstruction, leave the Iraqis alone , and turn America's attention quickly to achieving a fair resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict." R.K."
I would much rather have the Iraqi people as an allie than an enemy. Personally I've heard enough disturbing things about Saddam's regime to convince me he is inhumane and should not be allowed to continue. America is indeed taking a very big chance. We are sticking our neck way out on this one. Bush would have to be crazy to continue with this if his information was faulty. Until the whole truth be known I am going to have to stand behind my country though. Maybe we are making things worse but one thing I'm sure of, The United States is not to blame for all of the world's problems and alot of people from other countries don't understand everything about our culture especially if all you know of us is what you see through american tv. Hollywood is what is out of touch with the rest of the world not the U.S.Government. Unfortunately they are the ones who's opinions and views are most widely dispursed across the globe.
ps. If it weren't for us inventing the automobile, airplane, Jet, etc... they wouldn't have half the money they have now. And if it weren't for the US and UK, europe would be speaking German or Russian.
Subject: RE: How did America became what it is not ?
From: suddenfun
Date: Apr 10 2003 11:52PM
Very balanced and well toned manner of saying, is America really this STUPID? i CANNOT BUT RANT...Unfortunately for now we are. Self examination, the mere suggestion of which raised hackles post 911 apparently has ono place in governance here. Sta-THE-quo-doh! lagarrdship with no surprises. Stone willed laziness with the power and moral bilge rot character to sail the festering stank schow right up the flag pole of fear and FOX Gnuze a salute to our collective igno-fizz-ichs, science pre fit to conclude, no problems of integrity here, "BLESS HE, THE HALO OF DELUDED GRANDIOS Will LIGHT THE PATH ...CAST in darkness all basis in balance...RE_ASSSESS a POSITION, OR DISCERN ONE GROUND UP DIMBY...ITS JUST THE FREE WORLD YOU FOUL... "Apparently its not a lie if he believes," the rest of us do not HAVE TO ...TRUST AND SECRECY...ITS ALL ON US FOR THIS GUYS SETING STINK DEEP IN TO THE FOLD ...
Leadership by browbeating figureass, a rE-cockulous buffoon akin to a steaming "dump," a cow-shit boot stank figurehead and HIS clustering maggot clowns of groupthink to lick it for him. He is deceitful and deceptive and traNsparant in his motiveS but thinks a suit jacket somehow respects the office...welll since it doesn't respect people, international law, proper english in the nuKewlar age....and we are TO be left to hold bag. The malingering Bush puke sak that we have SUFFERED WITH UNRELENTING ... had our attentions pestered to wits end, and in defience of any logic, urgency or simple math and finance [>inspections: 80 million, security intact, diplomatic place of respect just tarnished....1 year.[>THEBUSHWARFOR-HALLI-BECHTEL-BURTON and other, providers of "unfettered" access to opinion for the Veep, Dick "STAIN on this Republic" Cheney...THE 100 BILLION DIRECT cost, the opportunity cost of these 9 months of recovery of our domestic economy held in abayance, 100 Lives no more of Americans who Deserved better, 1000's of Iraqi's lives too who deserved simply that you would have put a sock in it scud bush and taken yes for an answer (not in plan), 1.5 billion in direct "reconstruction" contracts...efficiently awarded...1 year.Haliblewya, ANWAR here we come ...the man and the top stumps now seem to rattle and posture as if they are next to bring our 225 years of democracy to 3000 year old civilizations... to bring it to Saudi and Syria and to their Leaders there THROUGH THEIR PEOPLE, their own people...so give him a tranquilizer someone! toss this frat zero a new duncan yoyo and propPELLER hat and pretzels, LITTLE ONES...if we don't get lucky, please, please more radical schools of A MIND TO STEP TO THIS prez for his high crimes and treasons against this country...remember the mortal wound of the anti-BUBBA of THE DARKNESS IT nears the apocalyptic end game foretold, SO think MOAB, precision guided stuff...
NO MATTER SUCCESSESS OF LATE THEY BUILD ON FAILED LEADERSHIP, GREED, LIES, MANIPULATION, FRIVOLOUS EXCESS OF SPENDING VIOA CRONIES AND KIND, HE IS A LIAR AND TREASONOUS EVIL SPEWER...MAY HIS DEMISE DELIVER US FROM THIS LOW BAR OF INTELLECTUAL STILTING AND STATIC THOUGHT...
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 4:59PM
when we let guys of your race and color come over. Go back to India. You obviously feel more comfortable in mono-race society. This multi-culturalism is clearly a threat to you.The only land we hold in foreign countries is the land we used to bury our dead soldiers. Bugger off fella.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: Skeptic-3
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:14PM
"when we let guys of your race and color come over. Go back to India."Your racist attitudes towards Arabs and now Indians is getting tiring. I note that you like to refer to all Arabs who opposed a US war in Iraq as "the Enemy." Apparently, you now lump Indians into that category as well.Your utter contempt and disrespect towards anyone who questions the morals of the US government just proved this person's point. We are a nation of arrogant fools.
Subject: RE: He's an arrogant nation of fools
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:24PM
Funny how this racist rants about the US in terms of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and then tells us what an imperialistic sack of crap we are. Too bad I know real Indians who live here and don't tear this nation down. They build it up. I doubt he's from here so he can go about the business of fighting with his Hindu brother or Muslim brother depending on which side of the fence this racist fool falls. What a sad freaking joke he is. What a sad fool you are to fall for it. As for me bashing Arabs, use my MBTU to point me to it. Arafat's a terrorist and thief and I'll stand behind that post.
Subject: RE: He's an arrogant nation of fools
From: Skeptic-3
Date: Apr 8 2003 7:07PM
"Funny how this racist rants about the US in terms of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and then tells us what an imperialistic sack of crap we are." What racist rants? Are you referring to some other post of his?"Too bad I know real Indians who live here and don't tear this nation down. They build it up."You can't build up anything without identifying its faults on the way. How dare the abolitionists criticize slavery! How dare civil rights activists critize racist governmental policies! It is the shameless apologist for anything the US government does who keeps a nation from truly progressing."I doubt he's from here so he can go about the business of fighting with his Hindu brother or Muslim brother depending on which side of the fence this racist fool falls. What a sad freaking joke he is."You must be referring to some other post. I didn't read anything racist in what he said. Perhaps the explicit racist sentiment of your response wasn't genuine -- it was simply a response to what you perceived in his post. If so, I apologize for the criticism. Otherwise, you're an ass."What a sad fool you are to fall for it. As for me bashing Arabs, use my MBTU to point me to it. Arafat's a terrorist and thief and I'll stand behind that post."I don't dispute the dubious nature of Arafat. Your hostility towards Arabs in general, however, is evident in some of your other post. An example: RS Doesn't Like Arabs [bbs.slate.msn.com]In response to Lukey's post where he writes, "..it depends on how many muslims we've pissed off by killing civilians in Iraq" you write "WHO CARES! You're actually worried about pissing off the enemy?"Do you believe that a Muslim who is angered by our actions in Iraq is an "enemy" and their views are therefore illegitimate? That's what your response implied. If that's the case, you explain to me why it's not a racist point of view.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:44PM
The only land we hold in foreign countries is the land we used to bury our dead soldiers. Bugger off fella..................................................Listen, you poor ignorant soul, America doesn't need to own foreign land, it owns the foreign leaders.Boy, do we get tired of your uninformed bullshit!
Subject: RE: What a load of kaka
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:52PM
You post with a serious face. These retards can barely run the country let alone have shadow governments the world over.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:54PM
"Listen, you poor ignorant soul, America doesn't need to own foreign land, it owns the foreign leaders.Boy, do we get tired of your uninformed bullshit!"You have proof of this? Please provide proof before it becomes clear your slanderous intent.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: Inquiring_Mind
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:03PM
"we"???Mouse in your pocket?IM
Subject: Have you forgotten already?
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:29PM
Has it already passed into the blurry fog of forgotten horror when we were attacked?How many times in our history have we tried to avoid conflict only to be pulled into it by other countries who's motivations and agendas have nothing to do with our interests?You say we are bullies and I say we are defending the freedoms that allow you the ability to post your opinions here.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: BrerBear
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:51PM
"You say we are bullies and I say we are defending the freedoms that allow you the ability to post your opinions here.">>>Nonsense. You neocon yokels resent those freedoms.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:55PM
">>>Nonsense. You neocon yokels resent those freedoms."Untrue, you racist.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: BrerBear
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:10PM
Alright, I'm a racist.
Subject: Who cares? LOL!
From: George1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:41PM
Subject: RE: Who cares? LOL!
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:00PM
George,How can you care about anything when you don't know what the f**k is going on?
Subject: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: George1
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:53PM
and wiser than you. :)
Subject: RE: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 7:14PM
My daddy can beat up your daddy!Just trying to find your intellectual level.
Subject: RE: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: hal007
Date: Apr 9 2003 4:03PM
George claims he is smarter than everyone who proves his spin wrong. :)
Subject: RE: How did America became what it is not ?
From: Inquiring_Mind
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:02PM
Shiva,This country began to lose its goodness when people with your attitude began to dominate the popular culture. This country began to lose its goodness when poverty was seen not as a condition to escape, but a virtue to be held up as a source of guilt for all not in that state. This country began to lose its goodness when justice began, routinely, to be sacrificed to mercy. This country began to lose its goodness when claptrap like your post was given rave reviews amongst the equally depraved intelligensia.You talk about arrogance, and so I look at this country, and I wonder where you see it. Do you see it in the arrogant fools who think the money earned by individuals is to be spent on the object of their particular compassion? Do you see it in those arrogant brats of the coasts who think they can prescribe what sort of vehicle everybody in the country ought drive? Do you see it in the arrogant media morons who think they can slap their fans, the root of their fame and success, and simply walk away, unscathed? Do you see it in the statist politicians who observe that the bulk of the nation is just so much 'fly-over country'?Where, exactly, are you finding this arrogance? I should like to know...As to the historical facts, it's high time you learned a few:It was this nation that was dragged into the first world war by an interventionist president. That we tipped the scales in favor of the Brits and French is obvious, but what is not so obvious is that in the lopsided Treaty of Versailles, the groundwork was set for the next great adventure. We did not win that war, so much as exchange enemies at the end. Rather than face Germans and Japanese and Italians on the battlefield, openly, we instead allowed a tyrant to rise in the East, actually more than one, all in pursuit of that proven colossal irrelevance known as the United Nations.Do we need the UN? No. Does it serve our interests? No. Does it serve the interests, generically, of the globe? Only if those interests include wanton aggression, statist and theocratic dictatorships, and merchants of death. If you conceive these to be in the interests of the globe, I bid you go live with the rest of the globe, and stay the hell out of my country.Back to the matter of 'arrogance', briefly, I perceive, and I think I am correct here, that what you call 'arrogance' is merely the self-esteem, the national pride, of a people that has risen from awfully austere beginnings to dominate the world stage, having EARNED IT.What has India earned? What of France? What of Iran? What of any of the other nations you would suggest had not been arrogant? I find it to be the height of arrogance that people from any of those nations would suggest, or somebody else on their behalf, that they had a legitimate claim to influence in the world. That's laughable. France has been in a state of decay since they whacked off the heads of the royals, rapidly replacing them with a different sort of monarchy of the proletariat. India has not been able to settle its internal squabbles, or the ones with its neighbors, for decades. Iran has see-sawed from one nonsensical regime to the other. The list goes on and on and on. Would you have me believe that we should humble ourselves and turn to this list for the proper conduct of internal or international affairs? Please... Many people here conceive that I too am arrogant. That's their choice. If arrogance, as you call it, is the result of having earned my existence, so be it, call me the most arrogant man alive for daring to wish to keep what I have earned. Your parade of filthy looting people's states scattered all over the globe are nothing more and nothing less than the encroachment of savagery into the modern age.What perturbs you most, by my accounting, is that we have such power, having earned it. We earned it on the battlefield, and are doing so again in Iraq. We earn it on the floors of our factories, in our high-rise offices, and on our farms. We earn it in our courtrooms, and in our public forum. We pay for it in sweat and blood and thought, particularly the last of these.
We pay. We earn. We set the standard to which none have yet risen.Yet we have, of late, began to fall, and not due to our virtues, listed in the preceding paragraph, but due to the vices described in my queries as to your observance of arrogance. It is in that list of vices that you will find the root cause of any diminution of our stature, and the goodness at its base.When we subject ourselves to rants such as yours, racist, almost tribalistic, we have two alternatives: To pass moral judgment and discard your lunacy, or to practice moral agnosticism and give your views equal weight to ours. The rational among us will see that the latter is a fool's sacrifice. The rational among us will pass judgment on your buffoonery, and label it appropriately. That is the purpose of this response. I want you to know that you are indeed the enemy of America, at least in philosophy if not in fact, and it is away from you and your bankrupt ideology that we must turn in order to survive. Yes, this most of all, you call arrogance: The willingness of Americans to pronounce moral judgment, those of us with spines still remaining, and moral uprightness still guiding us. It is this you fear, and it is that we might act upon the basis of those judgments that sends you screaming into the night about our diminished goodness.It is my most fervent hope that in time, more Americans will come to the rational conclusion that they need not feel guilt for their virtues, the source of your curses against us. It is my solemn desire to see a day when Americans can stand in pride, arrogance you will call it, and tell those of your mentality to go back to your hovels, your war-torn, tribalistic hate-filled sties, and revel in it alone.IM
Subject: What Inquiring-Mind said
From: S
Subject: RE: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: Shdw98
Date: Mar 30 2003 6:55PM
Hadoz put it better than I ever could. I don't believe the Bush administration got faulty information from the CIA and that Saddam Hussien is just another nice guy. I also don't believe that we should have to solve all the world's problems, however, Iraq's regime is our enemy and poses a direct threat to the US. The term, "Live Free or Die" came out of the american revolution. Again, it means I would rather die than live under the control and domination of any government or terrorist group. Now if you have some real evidence that this war is unjust or being waged under faulty information, I'm all ears but don't give me that war for oil crap or America's imposing it's values on others crap. NONE of the nations in the middle east or the world for that matter have to do business with us if they don't want to.
Published at blog-city on Monday, 2 June 2003
Subject: How did America became what it isn't?
From: shiva
Date: Apr 8 2003 9:03AM
How did America became what it is not ? When did it begin to lose its goodness?
In 1790 America was a nation of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and a few others. Hundred years later, the nation had become a land that had the diversity of the whole world. Today it is a nation of people of the most diverse cultural origins. It is a microcosm of the culturally diverse Planet Earth.
Politically the nation emerged as a nation of a noble vision, founded on the principles of liberty, equality and justice, constructing its values of nationhood based on the thinking of John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire among other greatest thinkers known.
Earlier in this century it had been a peace loving nation that wouldn't go to war, and after it won a war that it was drawn into, it went on to reconstruct Europe with its Marshall's plan. To make the world a world without war it founded the United Nations.
The nation's political framework, its values such as Democracy, Equality and Social Justice and its overall benevolent spirit had set the nation apart as an example. Its people reflect the spirit of the nation as by and large the people of the United States are magnanimous in spirit. Americans have instituted more foundations than several other nations combined.
With what is happening in the recent past- its domineering attitude towards the rest of the world, the war in Iraq for instance, America appears to have become what it is not.
All that America was remains covered with dust today. Like a dusty mirror which distorts light, the light within America is more than blurred by simple misconceptions in political execution.
What happened?
America has been good, but it became self righteous about its own goodness. Wanted to impose its values such as Democracy in the rest of the world, championed human rights and free trade. Perfect. But somewhere along the process the values that America set out to advocate took a back seat and the power that the rhetoric brought about became the objective. The result was that the nation ended up being one-up over the rest of the world. What remains now is that high handed stance and not the values which America set out to advocate.
Immersed in its belief that its constitution and institutions are superior, America did not review its constitution and institutions periodically. The founding fathers of America wrote the most profound constitution when America became a nation, but periodic review would have made it more balanced.
After all, how old is democracy? ie., the democracy as it is in America? Set aside the ancient Roman senate, Democracy is 225 years old. In the time line of mankind 225 years of experience is not at all long enough. It is too little a time to understand the inherent flaws of the system (I am not a socialist, not a communist, not a monarchist, but someone thinking aloud). Monarchy is the most ancient institution and we don't have much of it left in its active form. My argument is that half the world believed that socialism was noble until it burst. Same may not happen with democracy, but in 225 years it is far from perfected.
The Judiciary, Executive and Congress were constituted as balanced branches, but then with changing times, the balance was hurt by various forces, such as the various lobbies that exercised their influence over the Congress, as also various branches of government such as Pentagon or CIA that emerged stronger than even the Office of the President in some instances. This may not exactly be what is really happening at this point of time, but part of the historical cause of how America became what it is not. What has America done to review its constitution? What has it done to debate on the need to keep the various organs balanced with changing times? What has America done to balance the lobby groups? What has it done to ensure press freedom in its true sense while keeping the press as an institution balanced? What has the nation done to examine if any of the Administrative organs have gained more than due influence over national affairs?
The World War era required America to spend on Defense and the cold war era required America to develop more powerful weapons. The cold war era required America to adopt various strategies, overt and covert and this behavior has left a lasting impression and a pattern in itself which ought to have been erased with the emergence of the new world order.
Today America doesn't seem to care about Democracy. It uses it as a doctrine to be advocated when a certain government does not suit its national interests. Same can be said of its championship of human rights. It funded the Taliban and it patronized Saddam Hussein when it suited America. This means that America could brook any abuse of human rights as long as its own national interests are not hurt. Free Trade? Free Trade became an unspoken slogan to make the rest of the world Buy American.
Somewhere along the time-line America set itself apart from the rest of the world. American life is precious: Come on, LIFE IS PRECIOUS, every life. The national interests of America as a World Power is important: Well, if you wish to be a global power, why place national interests paramount? National interests are fulfilled automatically when that isn't the only item in your agenda. When you are instrumental in making the world at large a better place to live your own national well-being is more than duly served.
What is now happening is that America is trying to assert itself as a world leader without placing the interests of the world paramount. It wants to lead the world while blatantly talking about its national interests. It prides in itself as a Super power. The reality is that it is an illusion that America is a superpower. If it indeed is, it wouldn't shout at the top of the voice that it is a superpower. Real power gives modesty and if America is really powerful it would have made UN look powerful.
American posture has always been domineering. What makes it worse is a basic phenomenon that no one in Diplomacy seems to have noticed: American English isn't the same as the English as the world knows it. Some American expressions convey an entirely wrong meaning. At other times the way the American government speaks is a reflection of its one-up, on-top attitude. And American protocol is so overbearing. Few heads of state and heads of government get past as equals of anyone above the rank of an Under Secretary in US Administration. American protocol is unwittingly designed to make it all burst one fine day.
American English sounds too casual. Everyone in the American Government including the American Press reporters call Iraqi President as Saddam on TV (outside America, it sounds so jarring). Other examples of what irritates some of those from the rest of the world are this: foreign nationals are "aliens" and "sanctions" are imposed on nations, big or small that did not fall in line.
It is with this attitude that America has been condescending towards its real and imagined enemies and in the process it has always underestimated its enemies. It has always thought that it could overthrow its enemies, in Libya, in Cuba and now in Iraq.
Even if America thinks it would overthrow Saddam Hussein, what great harm would befall America if it refers to the Iraqi President as the President of Iraq? Whatever be the degree or reasons for hatred for your enemies, if you make an effort to consider them respectable as strong individuals, then everything changes. Everything changes. It would be basic statesmanship to follow such a protocol. Who writes the President's speeches? The Psychological operations? Does the Psychological Operations know that there are other cultures existing elsewhere in the world that are at least slightly different from American?
Who is advising the American administration to adopt such a posture of a "bully" as America is began to be viewed as?
Why has America been one-up over the UN, which is all world, when it could at least pretend to be a part of it?
A little more modesty would make America far more greater. There are such simple reasons why America has made so many enemies.
How many enemies can America afford?
shiva ( dot ) madras (at) gmail ( dot ) com [ new email ]
Comments at blog-city
comment added :: 12th October 2003, 14:40 GMT+05:30
The Americans did not create the United Nations Organisation. The UNO was an offshoot of the League of Nations which was based in Europe. The Americans "offered" the UNO a base in New York.
comment added :: 11th September 2004, 01:35 GMT+05:30
In order to understand any country and its role in the world, one must understand its divisions. I skimmed this critique and it seems like a prelude to The Picture of Dorian Grey. In fact, no country is homogenous or univocal.
Note: the USA has machinery for amending its constitution, but total revision is regarded as anathema because of the danger that the party in power at the time of revision will destroy fundamental liberties. Nevertheless, there have been some extraordinary transformations of the US polity through amendments.
James R MacLeanslate.com reactions to America, America, some very angry
Subject: we failed to change with our changing people
From: mark14
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:11AM
and stay true to our ideals of equality and fairness. The original immigrants became a entrenched power elite intent on emulating the British colonialists through brainwashing the disenfranchised into supporting acts of agression in the name of freedom but for much darker motives. There is lots of money to be made in this process. Where is Ken Lay? (He's really just a symbol of the pervasive rot). Support the troops and working Americans. Change the leadership that is leading us deeper and deeper into this mess.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: Clearview
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:37AM
What happened is that a weak leader was elected, and due to his deep weakness he is trying to show the opposite. He is surrounded by a bunsh of self beneficiaries.They are telling him exactly what they need to get more profit,but they make him think he is the decision maker, (The poor cowboy). The problem is that no wise man is standing in his face and telling him to stop what he is pushing us to. But for sure WISE MEN still exist and will act soon to save America.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: ksmutzer
Date: Mar 30 2003 2:43AM
You are quick to blame Bush, but there has been a long line of weak leaders that lead up to the current situation. We are a people of a weak mind and of nieviety. Look beyond what the press and the people of this forum tell you and maybe you will see the light. A learned mind comes from research and interest and not slanders from the uneducated. Open your eyes and you shall see the truth.
Subject: Until you learn how to spell 'naiveté,
From: Catnapping4444
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:12AM
you might wanna shy away from comments about others' educations...LOL(pssst: It's not spelled, 'nieviety.')
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 8:54AM
I would tend to agree with you and I can see that you have a deep respect for the principles that our nation was founded. I was very upset about the fact that we were going to war without un approval until I heard the president's speeches. I chose to believe him and to trust him and I didn't even vote for him. If we do find weapons of mass destruction then I would have to then say that the view of America you expressed is not accurate, that there are enough Americans who DO care about their country to make it worth standing up for. I am going to wait a bit before making my judgement of the Bush administration. After some time more of the truth will come out. We the American people can see how our leaders handle the post-war period... like whether or not we're going to keep our oil companies from getting their greedy little fingers on Iraqi oil, how long will we actually have to occupy Iraq, what type of leadership is going to replace Saddam and will the world economy be opened up to Iraq... etc.
We do have to pay close attention through all of this and always remember that WE have the power to change things so America is what WE make of it.
Subject: the scary thing is you're right
From: Bdbureau1987
Date: Mar 29 2003 11:21AM
You're absolutely right. Our country that was founded on ethics, principles, and fair play. In the last few decades, we have seen every one of those virtues torn to shreds. Watching the presidential elections have been like watching the deevolution of man. We went from Roosevelts (homo-sapiens) to Nixxons (Cro-Magnon) to Reagans (Neanderthal) to Bushes (A Chimpanzee who has been strategically shaven and forced into a suit.) I suspect we'll be seeing inanimate objects in office before this is over. There was a time when we could stand up with pride for what our country did. Now we defend its leaders' thoughtless arrogance with jargon, propaganda, and those little dowel-mounted flags you buy down at K-Mart.
Let's remember that patriotism isn't always a good thing. Nazi Germany had heaping, festering gobs of patriotism.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 7:22PM
I take it you're a democrat? heheh :-)
I am neither. I try to give all candidates equal consideration. The way I see it is both parties have legitimate views. Its the ying and yang of politics that keeps things in check. When clinton was in office for 8 years things were looking great! But during this period the American people began to lose interest once again in foreign affairs and all during this time criminals had been building their power both over-seas and here at home while we just smoked cigars and played the saxophone (and perhaps allowed big business to do unethical things to other countries as well as our own for cryin out loud!!!). Now Americans are once again becoming interested in what is going on in the rest of the world and I think thats a very good thing. This war could turn out to be the first step towards healing our differences with other cultures.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: Bdbureau1987
Date: Mar 29 2003 10:34PM
Close... I'm actually fiscally conservative, but I believe in voting your conscience; not your wallet. So naturally, I tend to vote Democrat. They may be annoyingly naive, but they're not evil.Basically, as I see it, the office of president has devolved since the early 1900's. Clinton was really no exception. Certainly, he was more intelligent than Ronald Reagan or Pappy Bush, but let's face it, there are bedpans out there that are more intelligent than the Reagans and the Bushes. Perhaps he wasn't as hell-bent on destroying the environment and dragging us into pointless wars. But, On an ethical and moral level, Clinton was a festering pile of lying swine fodder. Same as Reagan. Same as Pappy and Baby Bush.
Basically put:
1. We expect our leaders to engage in immoral, unethical, highly corrupt acts.
2. We expect them to be stupid and clumsy enough to get caught in the act.
3. If we ask our leaders to graciously step down after being caught in said acts, we've come to accept that they won't. They'll cling on to office for dear lives, letting the scandal humiliate both themselves, their families, and their country. We expect them to offer pathetic justifications ("I said I did not sleep with THAT woman," "he tried to hurt my daddy,") and play out the media circus until we're so tired of it we're willng to just give up and wait for their term limit to be over with.I think that this lack of accountability is less than pathetic. If a trainee accidentally puts his retainer into a Big Mac, he/she's fired. If a teacher accidentally lost seven children on a field trip, he/she would be fired. If a surgeon accidentally sews their egg sandwich into a patient's gallbladder, he/she would be fired. It's a shame we don't hold those given the *priviledge of leading to the same standard as we would a M'cee-Dee's trainee.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: ksmutzer
Date: Mar 30 2003 2:52AM
Actually, if you look at our history, corruption has infected our politics for longer than just a mere few decades. Time and time again there has been scandal involving political figures. I only wonder if you even voted in the past election, considering that a very small percentage of this nation actually votes. Yet everyone has a complaint about someone in office and didn't use their privilage of voting. And that's what's wrong with our country today. It isn't the people in office, because it's the people that put them there. The real blame lies on the shoulders of the masses that chose not to vote for whatever reason. It all boils down to our system failing to work because the citizens fail to take advantage of the one thing that makes this country great!!! Work on this and you can solve the problem.
Subject: RE: the scary thing is you're right
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:26PM
I've voted almost religiously since I was 18 and yeah you are right, that IS the problem with the US. I hate to say this but I think that anyone who doesn't get off their lazy rear ends to vote is nothing but a free-loader and has no business living here! I've also rarely voted Dem. or Rep.. I feel that there have been some very interesting candidates from other parties that would have made good leaders. So you can see why I am FOR voting. If more people would vote, maybe we can get someone in office who can make a difference. I'm sick of the Dems and the Reps fighting each other all the time and really feel its time for all that to change. But voters keep putting one or the other in office. Why? I realize its taking a big chance letting another party take a crack at leading the country but I'm willing to take that chance I guess so I vote independantly.
Subject: TO SHIVA HOW AMERICA IS AMERICA PART 3
From: americaislost
Date: Mar 30 2003 12:49PM
I would like to answer your assumptions in CAPITALS. First I want to make a statement that you have to keep in mind as you read my response. Every one thinks they are on the "GOOD" side this is because we are tribal in nature and will always look upon our tribe as the "good and pure" THE OTHER TRIBE IS THE BAD AND EVIL"How did America became what it is not ? When did it begin to lose its goodness? In 1790 America was a nation of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and a few others. Hundred years later, the nation had become a land that had the diversity of the whole world. Today it is a nation of people of the most diverse culturual origins.AMERICAN HISTORY DOES NOT SHOW YOU WERE BORN OUT OF GOODNESS AND ACCEPTED DIFFERENT RACES. (WHITE ANGLO-SAXON WERE ACCEPTABLE) YOU CONVENIENTLY FORGOT ALL THE NEGRO SLAVES THAT WERE BRUTALLY TREATED FOR 400 YEARS BY YOUR GOVERNMENT AND SLAVE OWNERS.
EVEN AS LATE AS THE 1940 AND 1950 NEGROES IN THE USA WERE LUNCHED (APPROXIMATELY (6 TO 7,000). WAS THAT JUSTIFIABLE? >>> NEVER!! YET THE GOVERNMENT DID NOTHING..NATIVE AMERICAN INDIANS WERE KILLED BY THE MILLIONS' SMALLPOX INFESTED BLANKETS WERE GIVEN TO NORTH AMERICA INDIANS, BY THE EARLY BRITISH AND AMERICAN SETTLERS. Politically the nation emerged as a nation of a noble vision, founded on the principles of liberty, equality and justice, constructing its values of nationhood based on the thinking of John Locke, David Hume, Voltaire among other greatest thinkers known. DURING THE REVOLUTIONARY WAR THOUSANDS OF BRITISH SETTLERS LEFT AMERICA AND MIGRATED TO CANADA TO ESCAPE THE AMERICA REVOLUTION IN ORDER TO REMAIN LOYAL BRITISH. SUBJECTS.
SPANISH SETTLERS IN TEXAS AND CALIFORNIA WERE BUTCHERED AND THEIR LAND WAS CONFISCATED (YOU WERE ON THE WINNING TRIBE OF THESE LITTLE WARS SO OF COURSE YOU WERE THE GOOD GUYS THE OTHERS WERE EVIL AND MEAN AND KILLED THERE OWN PEOPLE SOUNDS FAMILIAR) Earlier in this century it had been a peace loving nation that wouldn't go to war, and after it won a war that it was drawn into, it helped reconstruct Europe with its Marshall's plan. To make the world a world without war it founded the United Nations. IT MAY APPEAR PEACEFUL AND LOVING TO YOU MAYBE BUT TO OTHERS IN THE EARLY CENTURY AMERICA DID MANY WAR CRIMES JUST ASK THE NATIVES INVOLVED WITH THE CONQUEST OF HAWAII.
OR AMERICA FIRST UNJUSTIFIABLE WAR "THE SPANISH AMERICA WAR" AMERICA WANTED TO FLEX ITS MUSCLES AND SO IT DID. THE NATION REJOICED IN VICTORY ONLY FOR AMERICA TO BE HATED ONCE AGAIN WARMONGERS HAD THERE WAY AGAIN..YOUR MILITARY CONTRIBUTION WAS APPRECIATED TO DEFEAT THE NAZI'S BUT DOES NOT REMEMBER THAT THE REST OF THE FREE WORLD WAS IN THE WAR SINCE 1939. AMERICA ONLY SUPPLIED MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND ENTERED THE WAR ON DEC 1941. BY THE TIME THE TROOPS WERE IN BATTLE POSITIONS IN WAS LATE 1942. THE MARSHALL PLAN ASIDE YOU WERE ALSO DEALING WITH A SOCIETY THAT WAS AROUND FOR MANY CENTURIES AND HAD SOME COMMONALITY WITH AMERICA SO THIS WAS A PLAN THAT HAD SUCCESS WRITTEN ALL OVER IT FROM THE START UNLIKE THE SITUATION IN IRAN, IRAQ, PALESTINE, VIETNAM ETC.... AMERICAS CONSTANT FEAR OF COMMUNISTS SOCIETIES CREATED A PARANOIA IN AMERICA. SO AMERICA PLANNED THE BAY OF PIGS INVASION ONLY TO FAIL. PRESIDENT KENNEDY DIPLOMATIC HANDLING OF THE CUBAN CRISIS WAS A MASTER PIERCE. UNFORTUNATELY HE LISTENED TO THE MILITARY ONCE AGAIN IN THE CASE OF VIETNAM. WHAT FOLLOWED WAS A DISASTER IN VIETNAM. TO THE REST OF THE WORLD IT LOOKED LIKE AMERICA WAS CREATING CONFLICTS. YOU WERE AND STILL ARE PROPPING UP DICTATORS ALL OVER THE WORLD AS LONG AS AMERICA HAS A PERSONNEL; GAIN, FROM THOSE DICTATORSHIPS, FROM THE SHAH OF IRAN, TO SAUDI KING, TO IRAQI IN ITS WAR WITH IRAN, TO AFGHANISTAN IN ITS WAR WITH RUSSIA, TO CENTRAL AMERICA GUATEMALA, SAN SALVADOR, SOUTH AMERICA SUPPORT FOR COLUMBIA, CHILE. THE VIETNAM WAR WAS NEVER REALLY JUSTIFIABLE NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED. AMERICA ONLY CREATED ANIMOSITY IN ASIA AND SHOWED THE WORLD THAT AMERICA IS A BULLY.. AMERICA HAS SUPPORTED ISRAEL EVEN THOUGH THE UNITED NATIONS HAS MANY RESOLUTIONS AGAINST ISRAEL. I BELIEVE IT'S 65 RESOLUTIONS TO STOP THE ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS IN THE WEST BANK AND GAZA STRIP. FOR YOUR INFORMATION THERE ARE A TOTAL OF 120 ILLEGAL SETTLEMENTS YET AMERICA CONTINUES TO GIVE FOREIGN AID (MILITARY EQUIPMENT) TO ISRAEL $10 BILLION PER YEAR. FOR EVERY PALESTINIAN THAT IS KILLED (100 PER MONTH) THERE IS A BULLET THAT SAYS "MADE IN AMERICA" The people of the United States are by nature magnimous. Americans have instituted more foundations than several other nations combined. YES THE AMERICA PUBLIC IS GOOD AS A HOLE AND I HAVE MANY AMERICA FRIENDS, THE REAL QUESTION IS NOT ABOUT AMERICANS ITS ALL ABOUT YOUR FUCKED UP FOREIGN POLICY THAT IS THE PROBLEM THIS IS FROM ANOTHER OF MY POSTS
The Bush administration and the Clinton Administration Did not sign the following and have objected other treaties
1. Mine Ban treaty (1998 Clinton)
2. Comprehensive Ban Treaty in (1999 Clinton)
3. Child Soldiers Treaty (2000)4. Bush has withdrawn from the 1972
4. Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty.
5. The US has exempted its self from inspection requirements of The Chemical Weapons Convention.
6. America has rejected the Bio-Weapons Protocol developed in the 1990's to strengthen the 1972 Biological and Toxin Weapons Convention
7. America has blocked the UN Small Arms Action Plan.
8. America decided to no longer support the clause in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty about Nuclear powers and working towards disarmament.
9. America has refused to sign the Kyoto Protocol on global warming.
The nation's political framework, its values such as Democracy, Equality and Social Justice and its overall benevolent spirit had set the nation apart as an example. YOU VALUE THE FRAMEWORK OF DEMOCRACY BUT YOU MAKE EXCEPTIONS YOU DO NOT APPLY THE RULES FAIRLY AND PROPERLY. RECENT EXAMPLES BIG FUSS OVER THE AMERICAN POW'S YET AMERICA AMERICA CRIES FOWL OF GENEVA CONVENTION YET YOU DO NOT ABIDE BY THE GENEVA CONVENTION EITHER. With what is happening in the recent past- its domineering attitude towards the rest of the world, the war in Iraq for instance, America appears to have become what it is not. All that America was remains covered with dust today. Like a dusty mirror which distorts light, the light within America is more than blurred by simple misconception in political execution.AMERICA WAS ALWAYS DUSTY. AMERICA MAKES A BIG DEAL OF THE 2,800 DEATHS (23 CANADIANS I BELIEVE) SEPT. 11 YET AMERICA FORGETS THAT OVER 12,000 AMERICAS DIE FROM HANDGUNS EVERY YEAR.. THIS IS A FAR CRY FROM CANADA WERE OUR HANDGUN MURDER RATE IS A MIR 166 PEOPLE. SO BEFORE YOU GO OUT AND TRY TO FIX EVERYONE ELSE PROBLEMS… STAY AT HOME AND FIX YOUR OWN PROBLEMS, PROBLEMS OF RACE, (THIS IS STILL AND ISSUE IN AMERICA) POVERTY, EDUCATION AND VIOLENT CRIMES, OVER TWO MILLION PRISONERS IN THE USA JAILS. SO BEFORE YOU TALK ABOUT FREEDOM AND JUSTICE FOR ALL. ASK THE PEOPLE IN VIETNAM WHAT THEY THINK AMERICA AND WAS AMERICA THE GREAT LIBERATOR, CERTAINLY NOT. AMERICA WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED A LIBERATOR IN IRAQ EITHER. NO ONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS THINKING THAT NOW. IF YOU CONTINUE WITH YOUR CURRENT FOREIGN POLICY THAN "THE AMERICAN DREAM" WILL BECOME THE "AMERICAS NIGHTMARE"
Subject: RE: TO SHIVA HOW AMERICA IS AMERICA PART 3
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:54PM
When you add it all up like that I agree it doesn't look too good. The more I read from people from around the world, the more I understand. I'm doubting that we Americans ever get the whole story from our leaders. I also agree that we have to remove the log from our own eyes before we can help others to see. I hope though that this time you are wrong about American motives because if you're correct then its time to get into politics! I am trusting that the Bush administration has legitimate reasons for invading Iraq. If I find out otherwise I am going to be one pissed off American!As a simple American citizen I am disgusted with the things you pointed out previously. I want nothing more than for all nations to be friends and to help each other so we can live peacefully which I'm sure is true of most common folk around the globe. It angers me to know that there are those who would seek to use the freedom America provides to do evil things.
I do have one question for you though; Have any of the dictators put in place by America ever been accused of inhumanity?
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: LittleAlex
Date: Mar 30 2003 3:17PM
Consolidation of wealth in America has more damage then any terrorist nation could dream. With wealth consolidation comes power consilidation, and the original meaning of democracy becomes diluted. Now government mailny represents different intestes of mainly the wealthy, their is no party that represents the working class. It a government for the wealthy, by the wealthy.
Subject: RE: America, America...
From: outdoorsdad
Date: Mar 31 2003 8:21AM
America has not lost its goodness. If it wasn't for America being willing to make a stand and spill the blood of its people the rest of the world would have been pretty much taken over by tyrants by now because frankly, besides England, no one else has the balls to make a stand and do what is right. It is only Americas power that stops that from happening. If America hadn't stood up to Iraq the first time do you think Saddam would have stopped at Kuwait? If it wasn't for the generosity of the American people there would be millions and millions more people living in poverty in this world.......where would everyone else be without the billions in aid we give out every year? You bitch about America......but if it wasn't for America this world would be a pretty dark place.....living under communism and tyrants. Count your blessings.
Subject: RE: America, America (Part II)
From: Shdw98
Date: Mar 29 2003 11:03AM
First of all, The US has NEVER funded the Taliban and we had no way of knowing how wicked Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaida group or for that matter Saddam Hussein's regime would have been back in the 1980's. We weren't mind readers!
Second, I don't subscribe to your view of America where our success or failure is contingent upon your approval. Live Free or Die! Do you know what that means? That means that I would rather take every action neccesary (even if it means my life) to not live under oppression or terrorist threats. Fact: Saddam has scud missles, his surrendering troops have been found with cypro, he has used chemical weapons on his own people and he funds terrorist groups such as Hamas and Al Qaida. He has not once tried to live up to the UN resolutions HE AGREED TO! We Americans are not arrogant but that doesn't mean we have to wallow in self-pity like France (or anti-war protesters around the globe) constantly asking ourselves, "how can we understand them or what have we done?" Screw you! My America was founded on principles that don't change and a constitution that even today, no other comes close. A big part of being American is knowing that you can't stick your head into the sand and ignore the threats and dangers in the world. We learned this after WWII. Liberating Iraq is a secondary benifit. The primary purpose of this war is to end the threat of terrorism and I fully support President Bush. Many anti-war types opposed Reagan for building up nukes in the eightie's too. They labeled him a cowboy and predicted a grim post-nuclear world. Today half of Europe and many other nations are free because of his no-nonsense policy. You'll never give him credit for that just as you will never give Bush or Blair credit for thier efforts on Terrorism but we know the truth.
Subject: RE: America, America (Part II)
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 12:28PM
I would have to agree with Shdw98 on this one. Your concerns are totally legitimate but not everything the government does is bad. As for high handedness, when two people are fighting and things are getting serious, somebody has to break it up! To do so though takes courage. We DO need to be aware of what our elected official's true motivations are but at the same time we also need to pay attention to whats going on in the world or we're liable to wake up one morning under a full scale attack, a surprise suicide attack. There is enough unjustified hatred towards America out there right now that we had better show vigilance or we are doomed. There will always be hatred towards whatever nation has the most power. I think that America is generally pretty responsible with her power but only because its citizens share in that responsibility. So, keep up the good work but please don't give up on the US! Its worth fighting for. Mar 29
Subject: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: americaislost
Date: Mar 29 2003 4:35PM
wrong. The rest of the world does care about your power they are anti-American because you are abusing your power.....People that attacked you on Sept 11 attacked for a reason and the reason is your arrogance and double standard. Any dictator who is pro American is OK with Bush and the Cronies.. . But any other dictator or government that has a different view America threatens including Canada for not supporting your unjustifiable war..
So guys live free and die in America leave the rest of the world alone..Former CIA analyst: US 'conned into war'Robert Baer charges that the American-led invasion is a 'dire mistake'BEIRUT: Middle East expert and former Central Intelligence Agency officer Robert Baer has charged that the American-led war in Iraq is a dire mistake based on false assumptions and faulty information, but that President George W. Bush cannot stop now and leave Saddam Hussein in power after the long emotional and political buildup to the war.
"The American people, Congress, government and president were conned into this war, in the full sense of the word, by neo-conservatives and hawks in Washington who sold a false bill of goods. The president was lied to and given erroneous information that was filtered through Iraqi exiles who had not lived in Iraq for 20 or 30 years and had no clear idea of realities inside Iraq. The exiles had no intention of fighting themselves, but wanted the US to fight for them," he told The Daily Star Thursday in an interview.
The 21-year CIA veteran quit the agency in good standing about five years ago, and was given the Career Intelligence Medal for his service. He called this "almost an accidental war," against the backdrop of an American population that did not bother with foreign affairs but suddenly suffered the wrenching emotional experience of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.
"There was already in place among some circles in Washington an old plan to attack Iraq. After Sept. 11, 2001 it was sold to the president, who was told that this would be a quick, decisive, easy, almost bloodless operation, at little expense and with no resistance by Iraqis, with Saddam Hussein gone at a flash of the muzzle. But it has not worked out that way.
Determined Iraqis who stalled mechanized divisions in southern Iraq are not just pockets of resistance. In its first week the war did not go as planned."Baer, who has published a book on his years in the CIA and is now publishing a second book about Saudi Arabia, said the worst scenario for the US is to surround and lay siege to Baghdad and its 5 million people.
He fears that this will increase the bitterness felt against the US by Arabs and Muslims, who increasingly see Americans as hostile to them. He is also concerned "that young Americans now are fighting and dying in Iraq based on faulty analyses from questionable sources," but he cannot see Bush stopping the war now.
"President Bush spent nine months working the American population into a frenzy of fear and anger about Saddam Hussein, and he cannot now tell them that it was not so serious after all, that he has to stop the war and leave Saddam in power."
The best way to minimize long-term damage to the US' standing in this region is for Washington "to make a brisk, clean transition to Iraqi or Iraqi-UN rule after the war ends, offer substantial assistance for reconstruction, leave the Iraqis alone , and turn America's attention quickly to achieving a fair resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict." R.K.
Subject: RE: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: hadoz
Date: Mar 29 2003 6:30PM
I sure hope that you are wrong! I find it hard to believe that US intelligence knows only faulty information and they sure aren't going to share anything important with the media until this is all over if even then. The only way this could be true is if Bush were an amature, a phoney, or completely mad. He grew up with a man Saddam tried to have asassinated. That would motivate me to make sure I had accurate information about him. I agree 100% with what you said here though:
" The best way to minimize long-term damage to the US' standing in this region is for Washington "to make a brisk, clean transition to Iraqi or Iraqi-UN rule after the war ends, offer substantial assistance for reconstruction, leave the Iraqis alone , and turn America's attention quickly to achieving a fair resolution of the Arab-Israeli conflict." R.K."
I would much rather have the Iraqi people as an allie than an enemy. Personally I've heard enough disturbing things about Saddam's regime to convince me he is inhumane and should not be allowed to continue. America is indeed taking a very big chance. We are sticking our neck way out on this one. Bush would have to be crazy to continue with this if his information was faulty. Until the whole truth be known I am going to have to stand behind my country though. Maybe we are making things worse but one thing I'm sure of, The United States is not to blame for all of the world's problems and alot of people from other countries don't understand everything about our culture especially if all you know of us is what you see through american tv. Hollywood is what is out of touch with the rest of the world not the U.S.Government. Unfortunately they are the ones who's opinions and views are most widely dispursed across the globe.
ps. If it weren't for us inventing the automobile, airplane, Jet, etc... they wouldn't have half the money they have now. And if it weren't for the US and UK, europe would be speaking German or Russian.
Subject: RE: How did America became what it is not ?
From: suddenfun
Date: Apr 10 2003 11:52PM
Very balanced and well toned manner of saying, is America really this STUPID? i CANNOT BUT RANT...Unfortunately for now we are. Self examination, the mere suggestion of which raised hackles post 911 apparently has ono place in governance here. Sta-THE-quo-doh! lagarrdship with no surprises. Stone willed laziness with the power and moral bilge rot character to sail the festering stank schow right up the flag pole of fear and FOX Gnuze a salute to our collective igno-fizz-ichs, science pre fit to conclude, no problems of integrity here, "BLESS HE, THE HALO OF DELUDED GRANDIOS Will LIGHT THE PATH ...CAST in darkness all basis in balance...RE_ASSSESS a POSITION, OR DISCERN ONE GROUND UP DIMBY...ITS JUST THE FREE WORLD YOU FOUL... "Apparently its not a lie if he believes," the rest of us do not HAVE TO ...TRUST AND SECRECY...ITS ALL ON US FOR THIS GUYS SETING STINK DEEP IN TO THE FOLD ...
Leadership by browbeating figureass, a rE-cockulous buffoon akin to a steaming "dump," a cow-shit boot stank figurehead and HIS clustering maggot clowns of groupthink to lick it for him. He is deceitful and deceptive and traNsparant in his motiveS but thinks a suit jacket somehow respects the office...welll since it doesn't respect people, international law, proper english in the nuKewlar age....and we are TO be left to hold bag. The malingering Bush puke sak that we have SUFFERED WITH UNRELENTING ... had our attentions pestered to wits end, and in defience of any logic, urgency or simple math and finance [>inspections: 80 million, security intact, diplomatic place of respect just tarnished....1 year.[>THEBUSHWARFOR-HALLI-BECHTEL-BURTON and other, providers of "unfettered" access to opinion for the Veep, Dick "STAIN on this Republic" Cheney...THE 100 BILLION DIRECT cost, the opportunity cost of these 9 months of recovery of our domestic economy held in abayance, 100 Lives no more of Americans who Deserved better, 1000's of Iraqi's lives too who deserved simply that you would have put a sock in it scud bush and taken yes for an answer (not in plan), 1.5 billion in direct "reconstruction" contracts...efficiently awarded...1 year.Haliblewya, ANWAR here we come ...the man and the top stumps now seem to rattle and posture as if they are next to bring our 225 years of democracy to 3000 year old civilizations... to bring it to Saudi and Syria and to their Leaders there THROUGH THEIR PEOPLE, their own people...so give him a tranquilizer someone! toss this frat zero a new duncan yoyo and propPELLER hat and pretzels, LITTLE ONES...if we don't get lucky, please, please more radical schools of A MIND TO STEP TO THIS prez for his high crimes and treasons against this country...remember the mortal wound of the anti-BUBBA of THE DARKNESS IT nears the apocalyptic end game foretold, SO think MOAB, precision guided stuff...
NO MATTER SUCCESSESS OF LATE THEY BUILD ON FAILED LEADERSHIP, GREED, LIES, MANIPULATION, FRIVOLOUS EXCESS OF SPENDING VIOA CRONIES AND KIND, HE IS A LIAR AND TREASONOUS EVIL SPEWER...MAY HIS DEMISE DELIVER US FROM THIS LOW BAR OF INTELLECTUAL STILTING AND STATIC THOUGHT...
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 4:59PM
when we let guys of your race and color come over. Go back to India. You obviously feel more comfortable in mono-race society. This multi-culturalism is clearly a threat to you.The only land we hold in foreign countries is the land we used to bury our dead soldiers. Bugger off fella.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: Skeptic-3
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:14PM
"when we let guys of your race and color come over. Go back to India."Your racist attitudes towards Arabs and now Indians is getting tiring. I note that you like to refer to all Arabs who opposed a US war in Iraq as "the Enemy." Apparently, you now lump Indians into that category as well.Your utter contempt and disrespect towards anyone who questions the morals of the US government just proved this person's point. We are a nation of arrogant fools.
Subject: RE: He's an arrogant nation of fools
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:24PM
Funny how this racist rants about the US in terms of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and then tells us what an imperialistic sack of crap we are. Too bad I know real Indians who live here and don't tear this nation down. They build it up. I doubt he's from here so he can go about the business of fighting with his Hindu brother or Muslim brother depending on which side of the fence this racist fool falls. What a sad freaking joke he is. What a sad fool you are to fall for it. As for me bashing Arabs, use my MBTU to point me to it. Arafat's a terrorist and thief and I'll stand behind that post.
Subject: RE: He's an arrogant nation of fools
From: Skeptic-3
Date: Apr 8 2003 7:07PM
"Funny how this racist rants about the US in terms of English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish and German nationals and then tells us what an imperialistic sack of crap we are." What racist rants? Are you referring to some other post of his?"Too bad I know real Indians who live here and don't tear this nation down. They build it up."You can't build up anything without identifying its faults on the way. How dare the abolitionists criticize slavery! How dare civil rights activists critize racist governmental policies! It is the shameless apologist for anything the US government does who keeps a nation from truly progressing."I doubt he's from here so he can go about the business of fighting with his Hindu brother or Muslim brother depending on which side of the fence this racist fool falls. What a sad freaking joke he is."You must be referring to some other post. I didn't read anything racist in what he said. Perhaps the explicit racist sentiment of your response wasn't genuine -- it was simply a response to what you perceived in his post. If so, I apologize for the criticism. Otherwise, you're an ass."What a sad fool you are to fall for it. As for me bashing Arabs, use my MBTU to point me to it. Arafat's a terrorist and thief and I'll stand behind that post."I don't dispute the dubious nature of Arafat. Your hostility towards Arabs in general, however, is evident in some of your other post. An example: RS Doesn't Like Arabs [bbs.slate.msn.com]In response to Lukey's post where he writes, "..it depends on how many muslims we've pissed off by killing civilians in Iraq" you write "WHO CARES! You're actually worried about pissing off the enemy?"Do you believe that a Muslim who is angered by our actions in Iraq is an "enemy" and their views are therefore illegitimate? That's what your response implied. If that's the case, you explain to me why it's not a racist point of view.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:44PM
The only land we hold in foreign countries is the land we used to bury our dead soldiers. Bugger off fella..................................................Listen, you poor ignorant soul, America doesn't need to own foreign land, it owns the foreign leaders.Boy, do we get tired of your uninformed bullshit!
Subject: RE: What a load of kaka
From: RS-1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:52PM
You post with a serious face. These retards can barely run the country let alone have shadow governments the world over.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:54PM
"Listen, you poor ignorant soul, America doesn't need to own foreign land, it owns the foreign leaders.Boy, do we get tired of your uninformed bullshit!"You have proof of this? Please provide proof before it becomes clear your slanderous intent.
Subject: RE: Maybe America was ruined...
From: Inquiring_Mind
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:03PM
"we"???Mouse in your pocket?IM
Subject: Have you forgotten already?
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:29PM
Has it already passed into the blurry fog of forgotten horror when we were attacked?How many times in our history have we tried to avoid conflict only to be pulled into it by other countries who's motivations and agendas have nothing to do with our interests?You say we are bullies and I say we are defending the freedoms that allow you the ability to post your opinions here.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: BrerBear
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:51PM
"You say we are bullies and I say we are defending the freedoms that allow you the ability to post your opinions here.">>>Nonsense. You neocon yokels resent those freedoms.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: SybreDeth
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:55PM
">>>Nonsense. You neocon yokels resent those freedoms."Untrue, you racist.
Subject: RE: Have you forgotten already?
From: BrerBear
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:10PM
Alright, I'm a racist.
Subject: Who cares? LOL!
From: George1
Date: Apr 8 2003 5:41PM
Subject: RE: Who cares? LOL!
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:00PM
George,How can you care about anything when you don't know what the f**k is going on?
Subject: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: George1
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:53PM
and wiser than you. :)
Subject: RE: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: LiberalSoul
Date: Apr 8 2003 7:14PM
My daddy can beat up your daddy!Just trying to find your intellectual level.
Subject: RE: Dear little dodo, I am much more knowledgable
From: hal007
Date: Apr 9 2003 4:03PM
George claims he is smarter than everyone who proves his spin wrong. :)
Subject: RE: How did America became what it is not ?
From: Inquiring_Mind
Date: Apr 8 2003 6:02PM
Shiva,This country began to lose its goodness when people with your attitude began to dominate the popular culture. This country began to lose its goodness when poverty was seen not as a condition to escape, but a virtue to be held up as a source of guilt for all not in that state. This country began to lose its goodness when justice began, routinely, to be sacrificed to mercy. This country began to lose its goodness when claptrap like your post was given rave reviews amongst the equally depraved intelligensia.You talk about arrogance, and so I look at this country, and I wonder where you see it. Do you see it in the arrogant fools who think the money earned by individuals is to be spent on the object of their particular compassion? Do you see it in those arrogant brats of the coasts who think they can prescribe what sort of vehicle everybody in the country ought drive? Do you see it in the arrogant media morons who think they can slap their fans, the root of their fame and success, and simply walk away, unscathed? Do you see it in the statist politicians who observe that the bulk of the nation is just so much 'fly-over country'?Where, exactly, are you finding this arrogance? I should like to know...As to the historical facts, it's high time you learned a few:It was this nation that was dragged into the first world war by an interventionist president. That we tipped the scales in favor of the Brits and French is obvious, but what is not so obvious is that in the lopsided Treaty of Versailles, the groundwork was set for the next great adventure. We did not win that war, so much as exchange enemies at the end. Rather than face Germans and Japanese and Italians on the battlefield, openly, we instead allowed a tyrant to rise in the East, actually more than one, all in pursuit of that proven colossal irrelevance known as the United Nations.Do we need the UN? No. Does it serve our interests? No. Does it serve the interests, generically, of the globe? Only if those interests include wanton aggression, statist and theocratic dictatorships, and merchants of death. If you conceive these to be in the interests of the globe, I bid you go live with the rest of the globe, and stay the hell out of my country.Back to the matter of 'arrogance', briefly, I perceive, and I think I am correct here, that what you call 'arrogance' is merely the self-esteem, the national pride, of a people that has risen from awfully austere beginnings to dominate the world stage, having EARNED IT.What has India earned? What of France? What of Iran? What of any of the other nations you would suggest had not been arrogant? I find it to be the height of arrogance that people from any of those nations would suggest, or somebody else on their behalf, that they had a legitimate claim to influence in the world. That's laughable. France has been in a state of decay since they whacked off the heads of the royals, rapidly replacing them with a different sort of monarchy of the proletariat. India has not been able to settle its internal squabbles, or the ones with its neighbors, for decades. Iran has see-sawed from one nonsensical regime to the other. The list goes on and on and on. Would you have me believe that we should humble ourselves and turn to this list for the proper conduct of internal or international affairs? Please... Many people here conceive that I too am arrogant. That's their choice. If arrogance, as you call it, is the result of having earned my existence, so be it, call me the most arrogant man alive for daring to wish to keep what I have earned. Your parade of filthy looting people's states scattered all over the globe are nothing more and nothing less than the encroachment of savagery into the modern age.What perturbs you most, by my accounting, is that we have such power, having earned it. We earned it on the battlefield, and are doing so again in Iraq. We earn it on the floors of our factories, in our high-rise offices, and on our farms. We earn it in our courtrooms, and in our public forum. We pay for it in sweat and blood and thought, particularly the last of these.
We pay. We earn. We set the standard to which none have yet risen.Yet we have, of late, began to fall, and not due to our virtues, listed in the preceding paragraph, but due to the vices described in my queries as to your observance of arrogance. It is in that list of vices that you will find the root cause of any diminution of our stature, and the goodness at its base.When we subject ourselves to rants such as yours, racist, almost tribalistic, we have two alternatives: To pass moral judgment and discard your lunacy, or to practice moral agnosticism and give your views equal weight to ours. The rational among us will see that the latter is a fool's sacrifice. The rational among us will pass judgment on your buffoonery, and label it appropriately. That is the purpose of this response. I want you to know that you are indeed the enemy of America, at least in philosophy if not in fact, and it is away from you and your bankrupt ideology that we must turn in order to survive. Yes, this most of all, you call arrogance: The willingness of Americans to pronounce moral judgment, those of us with spines still remaining, and moral uprightness still guiding us. It is this you fear, and it is that we might act upon the basis of those judgments that sends you screaming into the night about our diminished goodness.It is my most fervent hope that in time, more Americans will come to the rational conclusion that they need not feel guilt for their virtues, the source of your curses against us. It is my solemn desire to see a day when Americans can stand in pride, arrogance you will call it, and tell those of your mentality to go back to your hovels, your war-torn, tribalistic hate-filled sties, and revel in it alone.IM
Subject: What Inquiring-Mind said
From: S
Subject: RE: To Shdw98 and hadoz. the CIA thinks your
From: Shdw98
Date: Mar 30 2003 6:55PM
Hadoz put it better than I ever could. I don't believe the Bush administration got faulty information from the CIA and that Saddam Hussien is just another nice guy. I also don't believe that we should have to solve all the world's problems, however, Iraq's regime is our enemy and poses a direct threat to the US. The term, "Live Free or Die" came out of the american revolution. Again, it means I would rather die than live under the control and domination of any government or terrorist group. Now if you have some real evidence that this war is unjust or being waged under faulty information, I'm all ears but don't give me that war for oil crap or America's imposing it's values on others crap. NONE of the nations in the middle east or the world for that matter have to do business with us if they don't want to.
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